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Hollyberye
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club:
The Tale of Beren and Lúthien
Session Two, Sunday 28 February 2016


Attendees: Hollyberye, Byrcha, Dorholbytla, Cynemna, Godwineson, Alligretta, Goodwind, Mornawen, Mithmenelien, Andeon

Hollyberye: 'Welcome to the Lonely Mountain Band Book Club! We meet today to continue discussion of the Tale of Beren and Lúthien. The primary text we are using is from “The Silmarillion,” Chapter 19, Of Beren and Lúthien, but I am also interspersing that with excerpts from the “Lay of Leithian.” I will summarize some of the text before each discussion point, so although reading the material in advance is wonderful, if you were unable to, I feel you can still follow along well and participate in the discussion. You are also welcome to raise additional discussion points, of course! I will edit the chat log and post it in our forum thread. I do not plan to spend as much time editing it this go-round, mainly just correcting obvious typos.'

Hollyberye: 'To begin: We left Beren making a profound oath of vengeance and recovering his father’s severed hand with the ring of Felagund. Beren is the last of the House of Beor, closely aligned with the Elves as his father had saved Finrod’s life.'

Hollyberye: 'Beren wanders for four years, a solitary outlaw, befriending birds and beasts not in the service of Morgoth and a (sort of implied) vegetarian, too!'

Hollyberye: 'From the Lay of Leithian, Canto III, we learn that Beren is the:“fleetest of foot of living men, tireless on fell and light on fen, elf-wise in wood…and defended by his hauberk grey of dwarvish craft in Nogrod-made.” We are told by Tolkien in the Lay of Leithian that Beren feels such fierce despair that he only wants to use his days: “that Morgoth deep should feel the sting of his avenging steel” and that the only thing he fears is thralldom’s chain.'

Hollyberye: '“Danger he sought and death pursued”: “Of hunters hunted, slayers slain, they sang, of Gorgol the Butcher hewn, of ambush in Ladros, fire in Drûn, of thirty in one battle dead, of wolves that yelped like curs and fled, yea, Sauron himself with wound in hand.” Beren is alone but for his friends the beech and oak and the wary creatures who watch over him.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please point out the similarities and differences between Beren and Turin, Beren and Aragorn, and Beren and XX--is there any other Tolkien figure who bears resemblance?'

Hollyberye: 'I do think Beren and Turin bear some marked resemblance yet very different in their outlooks and destiny. I think this will crop out throughout the tale.'

Mithmenelien: 'personality-wise they are very different but they have many similar outer traits and skill-sets''

Hollyberye: 'Yes! I think the skill sets really show up on this journey of Beren's--the similarity to Turin. I should say Turin resembles Beren as he came later'

Mithmenelien: 'Beren and Turin are related I think so it's not really strange that they are similar, and Aragorn is also Beren's many times great great grand son, so maybe it's a bit inherited'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I completely forgot the hereditary lines when I asked that!'

Hollyberye: 'The fame of his bold deeds spread abroad, making him a marked man. Finally it reached the point where Beren must flee his beloved land, as he “upon the edge of death, at bay he stood aghast and knew that he must die at last”. He decided to seek the hidden land of Doriath, where no mortal foot had trod.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Morgoth sets a price upon his head, but the Orcs flee from Beren. How can that be, that the orcs are not uniformly obedient to Morgoth?'

Hollyberye: 'Hello Mornawen! You touched on this in the forum!'

Alligretta: 'I don't remember another instance of that?'

Hollyberye: 'Ally, in the Lay, the orcs act disobedient to their 'boss', when Beren comes to them to seek revenge'

Byrcha: 'heh, Orcs can be obedient through fear, yet not follow the orders also from fear'

Mornawen: 'Hello, Holly, sorry I'm late. Yes, it seems Orcs have their own petty self-interests, too.'

Hollyberye: 'Mornawen, in the forum, mentioned a passage in the Lay of Leithian--she posted a nice example of disobedience to the bad boss'

Byrcha: 'I was sad/miffed that there was so little discussion of 'oh, let's go to Doriath' when wasn't that a death-sentence?'

Hollyberye: 'yes Byrcha, and no mortal man had penetrated Doriath'

Byrcha: 'remind me, was the Lay written before the Silmarillion, but unfinished?'

Hollyberye: 'correct, that is my understanding'

Byrcha: 'like a first draft then'

Hollyberye: 'yes though there was even a story before that, not verse though'

Byrcha: 'okay thanks'

Hollyberye: 'The Tale of Tinuviel in 1917--but very different'

Byrcha: 'hmm, entering Doriath suddenly reminds me of Aragorn taking the Paths of the Dead'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, I read a version where Beren was a Gnome and Luthien more like a fairy'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I am so glad you have read that--feel free at any time to point out how it deviates'

Byrcha: 'Gnomes and fairies! preposterous! :P'

Hollyberye: 'Oh Byrcha I had not thought of that--also a suicidal (seemingly) trip'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, I went to the library and borrowed all I could find'

Alligretta: 'ooh, Byrcha, yes that is how it feels to me.'

Byrcha: 'a trip into unknown danger, out of necessity'

Hollyberye: 'And Morgoth sends an army of werewolves and fell beasts under the command of Sauron, but clearly they are unsuccessful, too. What does this say about Beren?'

Mithmenelien: 'he is like an army of one man it seams'

Hollyberye: 'yes an incredible man!'

Hollyberye: 'It was a terrible journey and Beren encountered many horrors. These included horror and madness where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together.'

Mornawen: 'Although it says the birds and beasts aided him.'

Byrcha: 'aye, a theme repeated with Aragorn right -- they were always hunting for him (albeit not an army)'

Hollyberye: 'yes'

Hollyberye: 'ohhh yes Byrcha great point'

Hollyberye: 'The Lay references “valleys woven with deceit and washed with waters bitter-sweet” and “dark magic lurked in gulf and glen.” Spiders of Ungoliant’s race were found: “mighty spiders wove their webs, old creatures foul with birdlike nebs that span their traps in dizzy air, and filled it with clinging black despair: and “the sucked bones lay white beneath on the dank stones.”'

Byrcha: 'yikes'

Mornawen: 'Creepy'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: The Lay goes into more depth on this place. Please share what you know about Beren’s journey to Doriath and/or provide any comments on it.'

Hollyberye: '--I felt Tolkien doesn't provide enough narrative on this harrowing journey'

Byrcha: 'I like it from the 'heroes journey' perspective, but wondered how all the spiders just sort of happened to be there all along'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I was intrigued by that, too'

Dorholbytla: 'I always felt that the Silmarillion read more like a series of chronicles than the fleshed out narrative forms of LOTR and the Hobbit'

Byrcha: 'aye!'

Hollyberye: 'Good point Dorholbytla'

Hollyberye: 'The most telling part to me is “evil shapes with baleful light in clustered eyes did crawl and snuff beneath his tree.” I also found the statement of the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian as very intriguing.'

Dorholbytla: 'I wish that Tolkien made a narrative form of Beren and Luthien, since he obviously had much personal investment in it.'

Alligretta: 'It feells like the what but not the why in places (as far as I have read)'

Hollyberye: 'It must be some metaphysical clashing of their powers of good and evil?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Alligretta, I keep having to stop and research to get more background'

Alligretta: '(so do I, and I get distracted then)'

Dorholbytla: 'I do love that Tolkien echoed Beren and Luthien in the LOTR, as well as Galadriel's background. It's almost more haunting when you see echoes of the distant past. There's a sad nostalgia that permeates some of Tolkien's best writings.'

Mithmenelien: 'about the spiders, apparently Ungoliat had come there earlier and found spiders that already lived there and started breeding with them and those creatures stayed there even after she disappeared.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh that is very interesting Mithmenelian--thank you'

Hollyberye: 'I wonder why she picked that spot'

Byrcha: 'strange that the description implies that this is a backdoor into Doriath, since no Elves and Men had gone there, yet the evil that lived there wasn't able to get in either'

Hollyberye: 'Background: Doriath is heavily protected. Thingol realized he could not defeat Morgoth so he closed the borders with a military March ward but equally, Melian created a maze of shadows and mists known as Melian’s magic girdle.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Tolkien uses the phrase about Beren that “a great doom lay upon him.” Now that sounds ominously like a description of Turin. Why does Tolkien use that language here? Does it mean something different than it did for Turin? The full sentence is “And he passed through the mazes that Melian wove about the kingdom of Thingol, even as she foretold; for a great doom lay upon him.”'

Byrcha: 'I'd think it has the same type of meaning, but Turin bungled his'

Mornawen: 'I think it's a neutral term, more like 'fate'.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the term doom comes up a lot, and some of my later points mention it. I think it is a combination of fate and sometimes bad fate...'

Hollyberye: 'But yes Turin aided and abetted his'

Alligretta: 'I see it as unavoidable fate not just fate'

Mornawen: 'Turin seemed to accept his bad doom, even while trying to evade it.'

Hollyberye: 'It seemed here though that Beren's doom/fate was greater than Melian's power'

Byrcha: 'yes, that is curious to me. her Girdle apparently kept everyone else out.'

Hollyberye: 'yes'

Mithmenelien: 'I tried to find out about it then I read it and earlier in the Silmarillion Melian had some vision about some none-elf entering Doriath, it might have to do with that.'

Byrcha: 'you'd think people would have been knocking at the gates for aid over the years'

Hollyberye: 'so he was MEANT to entwine his fate with Melian's daughter'

Mithmenelien: 'might not have been a vision but it was mentioned.'

Hollyberye: 'and it evaded Morgoth for so long'

Alligretta: 'I think that was the case, inevitable doom'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Mith, Melian foretold Beren's coming.'

Hollyberye: 'is that in an earlier chapter of the Silmarillion?'

Alligretta: '*listens carefully*'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, I don't remember which I just looked up the pages that Melian was mentioned in, in the index'

Hollyberye: 'Beren stumbles into Doriath grey and bowed, so great had been his torment upon the road. The Lay of Leithian describes his heinous journey vividly, as mentioned above, though at a high level.'

Hollyberye: 'This describes the state in which Beren arrives: “Forlorn he leaned against a tree, Wildered, wayworn, gaunt was he, with body sick, his heart gone cold, grey in his hair, his youth turned old; for those that tread that lonely way, a price of woe and anguish pay”'

Hollyberye: '…And then suddenly he stumbles upon the most incredible vision of loveliness.'

Byrcha: 'I found it, in chapter 10 ...next to last paragraph'

Mithmenelien: 'Found it chapter 'of the coming of men into the west,' page 144'

Hollyberye: 'oh thank you! I am reading a 1977 edition in hardback!'

Hollyberye: 'Here is how Beren first saw Lúthien: “Then she came forth, as sheer and sudden as flame of ambient light the bare feet leaving; and as when summer stars arise radiant into darkened skies, her living light on all was cast in fleeting silver as she passed.”'

Hollyberye: '“And now she stepped with elven pace, bending and swaying in her grace, as half-reluctant; then began to dance in mazes ran bewildering, and a mist of white was wreathed about her whirling flight.”'

Hollyberye: 'The Lay of Leithian goes on to describe her as having winged feet, her “long hair as a cloud streaming about her arms uplifted gleaming.”'

Hollyberye: 'Also her voice was “upraised in blissful song” that she had learned of the nightingales…”and in her living joy had turned to heart-enthralling loveliness, unmarred, immortal, sorrowless.”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Put yourself in Beren’s weary shoes…would you fall madly and passionately in irrevocable love with this Elven dancer? Is it conceivable or just the stuff of grand tales?'

Alligretta: 'how could you not?'

Byrcha: 'He would be mighty indeed to NOT have fallen for her'

Mithmenelien: 'she must have seemed like an angel come to life!'

Dorholbytla: 'Other than Eowyn and maybe Galadriel in the Silmarillion, I always felt that Tolkien didn't flesh out women enough.'

Hollyberye: 'yes, a wholly magical moment of transcendence'

Mornawen: 'It's hard to imagine such a superlative being.'

Dorholbytla: 'Luthien was kind of put on a pedestal.'

Dorholbytla: 'Even if it were love at first sight, it would've been better if they had real conversations.'

Alligretta: 'Love at first sight and all that...'

Byrcha: 'one could write much on the role of women in Tolkien's works!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes indeed'

Alligretta: 'not guaranteed to last, but men like appearance over all, apparently'

Dorholbytla: 'Beren was willing to die for an ideal. It may have been modelled after chivalric courtly love.'

Dorholbytla: 'Where courting the lady was an affirmation of virtue. So one would go on quests.'

Byrcha: 'it was a different time, and Tolkien was writing in a higher/epic style than we would expect today'

Godwineson: 'Tolkien was an Edwardian, not a man of the 21st cenury.'

Dorholbytla: 'He was definitely capable of it though. Eowyn was lovely.'

Alligretta: 'indeed'

Dorholbytla: 'And Galadriel had her beautiful moments.'

Dorholbytla: 'Some of my favorite in the whole Silmarillion-LOTR arc.'

Mithmenelien: 'I have read that this meeting between Beren and Luthien is based on Tolkien and his wife, that she danced for him like this in a place in a forest then he was a soldier in the war'

Hollyberye: 'yes I read that too'

Hollyberye: 'I proposed an over arching theme for the book club of focusing on the women of Tolkien, starting with this'

Dorholbytla: 'I really felt she had long term growth, and Gimli falling in love with her at first sight was more believable.'

Dorholbytla: 'Especially in light of her rejection of Feanor.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and the fact she gave three strands of hair to Gimli when she denied Feanor even one'

Alligretta: 'but such beauty and 'freshness' in a world-weary man'

Hollyberye: 'yes Ally, agreed'

Alligretta: 'seen by a weary man, I mean, it must have been like water to a thirsty man'

Hollyberye: 'Beren falls into an enchantment and all memory of his pain departs. This is because Lúthien is the most beautiful of all the Children of Iluvatar. She is the daughter of Thingol and Melian.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Describe what you know about Lúthien’s parentage and her importance as an Elf prior to making her own legend.'

Byrcha: 'well, for one thing, Thingol and Melian's first meeting was very much the same as Beren and Luthien's'

Mithmenelien: 'Her Mother is a Maia, so it's like she is a daughter of a godess.'

Hollyberye: 'And it is described beuatifully in the Lay of Leithian'

Byrcha: 'no wonder Thingol immediately became the over-protective father'

Hollyberye: 'Yes she is a Princess and a Godess'

Alligretta: 'and her name means enchantress?'

Hollyberye: 'she is half-royal and half-magical'

Hollyberye: 'I think that is one of the meanings--she had many names like all the best Elves :)'

Hollyberye: 'The love between Thingol and Melian was profound--easy to misread when we just see them briefly talking in Children of Hurin and this Chapter'

Mornawen: 'Quite a number of noble ladies seem to take up with random fellows they meet in the woods.'

Byrcha: 'hah!'

Hollyberye: 'But also Elves were very loyal to their sole partner'

Mornawen: 'Aredhel was seduced, too.'

Alligretta: '*giggles*'

Mithmenelien: 'I think the elves looked at her like a godess on earth, so her running off with a mortal man must have been very hard for them'

Hollyberye: 'It is their DOOM'

Hollyberye: 'hehe'

Byrcha: '*wonders about wisdom of going for a walk in the local woods after this*'

Mornawen: 'Be careful, Miss Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'or maybe I should take up such walking????'

Mornawen: '*laughs*'

Hollyberye: 'Oh wait, wrong era, wrong earth'

Alligretta: 'oh you never know you might meet a rich and powerful eluf'

Hollyberye: 'hehe'

Mithmenelien: 'you should alway be careful if you enter a magical forrest, never knows what might happen ;)'

Hollyberye: '**looks for magical forest in neighborhood**'

Hollyberye: 'Lúthien is described as wearing blue raiment like an unclouded heaven, and her eyes are grey as the starlit evening. Her mantle is sewn with golden flowers. Her hair is dark as the shadows of twilight. Her face is a shining light.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: In short, is Lúthien the most beautiful Elf to grace Middle-earth? Who are the contenders for that title?'

Byrcha: 'fyi: check out chapter 4 for the description of Melian and Thingol'

Byrcha: 'Galadriel is the other contender'

Hollyberye: '**if you like I can prep some background material on Thingol and Melian? I have done that now for Finrod'

Mithmenelien: 'Arwen was seen as the new Luthien in the present Middle-earth'

Hollyberye: 'yes'

Hollyberye: 'Galdriel and Arwen are the two I think of, but it seems that Tolkien meant for Luthien to be the most beautiful of all'

Mithmenelien: 'she is said to look like her and her other name Undomiel has to do with Lutihien to'

Mornawen: 'It's funny, in an earlier version of the Lay, Tolkien gave her blonde hair.'

Hollyberye: 'yes Arwen was the night star to Luthien as the morning star or something like that'

Hollyberye: 'Beren becomes like one under a spell, as she vanishes from his sight. He strays in the woods, wild and wary, like a beast.'

Hollyberye: 'He names her Tinúviel, signifying Nightingale, daughter of twilight. Then on the eve of spring he hears her sing again. Tolkien writes that the song of Lúthien releases the bonds of winter. How magical is that? To release the bonds of winter?

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, Luthien is clearly the most otherwordly beautiful one to ever be, and she is very beautifully described'

Byrcha: 'aye!'

Mithmenelien: 'she is like a goddess of spring!'

Hollyberye: 'Beren regains his voice and cries to her: Tinúviel!'

Byrcha: 'Elven magic was implied, but here we see it described'

Hollyberye: 'yes!'

Hollyberye: 'A few had that ability to sing and play music with magical effects'

Hollyberye: 'As she looks upon him, “doom falls upon her” and “she loves him.” She is stilled because: “His voice such love and longing filled.”'

Alligretta: 'so he hung around in the woods for a long while - and that reminds me of the tales of the woods near Tintagel in Arturian magic - not sure why it comes to mind'

Mornawen: 'Gimli and Eomer have a wager about beauty, Eomer chooses Arwen, Gimli says something like Arwen is evening but Galadriel is morning, which will soon pass away forever.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh Alligretta, yes it does!'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Camelot legends'

Mithmenelien: 'I think Melian helped tend the trees in the west before she came to Beleriand, so Luthien probly got the magic of growing things from her.'

Hollyberye: 'excellent point'

Alligretta: 'I keep seeing echoes of them in the Silmarillian'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien was definitely influenced by many folk tales and legends. I will try to list them in a later session'

Hollyberye: 'From Canto IV of the Lay of Leithian: “In elven dell that maiden fair, about him cast her shadowy hair, and under morrwless moonlit skies, he kissed her trembling starlit eyes. In hour charmed there a soft kiss she placed upon his muted lips.”'

Hollyberye: 'Beren swoons to the ground as she vanishes. He begins the payment of anguish for the fate laid on him. And in his fate Lúthien is caught. As an immortal she shares in his mortality and as a free Elf she receives his chain, Tolkien writes.'

Mornawen: 'Women's 'doom' consists of falling in love.'

Hollyberye: 'yes, that is an ancient take on it, it seems'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please discuss your thoughts on this doom and fate that captures both of them.'

Alligretta: 'interesting that it is a chain she recieves'

Mithmenelien: 'then I read that earlier part I got this vision of Luthien walking in a forest and from her footsteps grows flowers.'

Byrcha: 'aye, not as understandable why she would fall for him?'

Alligretta: 'Love is always a two-edged sword - it makes you prone to the worst disaster you can imagine - the death or hurt of your loved one'

Mornawen: 'She had heard of his deeds, even in Doriath they heard tell. I wonder if she recognized him?'

Hollyberye: 'Love can be inexplicable'

Hollyberye: 'but in researching Finrod this week, I suddenly felt he would have been a good match for Luthien had fate not dictated Beren--except of course, Thingol hated the Noldors....'

Mornawen: 'Finrod, mmmm'

Alligretta: 'Thingol would never be happy!'

Hollyberye: 'Well he was exceptionally good looking plus talented and kind. Yes Thingol would never be happy, I agree'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: what does Tolkien mean when he writes, “her anguish was greater than any other of the Eldalië has known.” This is a a Quenya term that refers to the Elven-folk in general.'

Mornawen: 'They were first cousins, too, not the Elf custom to marry so close.'

Hollyberye: 'oh, good point'

Hollyberye: 'I just have a hard time with that word anguish associated with falling deeply in love'

Byrcha: 'well, the Eldar don't die from the world'

Hollyberye: 'Oh meaning mortality of Beren?'

Mornawen: 'I think her anguish is in leaving her father and mother, in dying.'

Alligretta: 'falling in love can be the most painful thing, so Anguish would be a good description. And elves remind me of all the lovestruck teenagers I have known'

Hollyberye: 'well she enjoyed the greatest love and the greatest anguish all together, I guess, in Tolkien's books'

Alligretta: 'yes, to become mortal, to let your parents mourn you'

Mithmenelien: 'Then I read that I somehow thought it referred to her future anguish and not of anguish in the present.'

Byrcha: 'foreshadowing perhaps'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: we will discuss Lúthien’s hair later on, but what do you think Tolkien meant by describing it as “shadowy”?'

Byrcha: 'Elven hair was almost always black, no? not sure where I read that though'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod's House and the Vanyar often had golden hair'

Mornawen: 'The Vanyar had blonde hair'

Alligretta: 'shadowy seems to be an attribute not just about colour, I think'

Byrcha: 'oh, nevermind'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod, who I am now fixated on, had GORGEOUS golden hair'

Godwineson: 'because of his mother, Indis of the Vanyar.'

Mornawen: 'One of Feanor's sons, Maedhros, had red hair, I seem to remember.'

Mithmenelien: 'that it is black and maybe that it has a shadow like appearance, something undefined.'

Andeon: 'really holly? gorgeous? are we perhaps projecting just a little bit? :) also...'

Mornawen: 'Like his mother, Nerdanel.'

Hollyberye: 'hehe I did read that'

Andeon: 'regarding shadowy - it's been awhile since I read Tolkien, but aren't there a number of descriptions about elves that make them vaguely...ethereal, or ephemeral...'

Byrcha: 'shadowy is a nice description for black though'

Byrcha: 'better than 'blacker than evil' for example'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, Andeon that is what I thought to!'

Godwineson: 'The shadowy description is a foreshadowing (erm) of the stealth they will be using later, involving her hair'

Byrcha: 'oh ho!'

Andeon: 'shadowy *could* be an attempt to describe a darkness that is somewhat insubstantial, possibly alluding to the ephemeral nature of elves in general...'

Mornawen: 'Nice point, Godwineson.'

Andeon: 'or possibly alluding to the fact that Luthien isn't long for this world, and has already departed to some degree'

Hollyberye: 'well yes, I do plan to bring up her hair later'

Mithmenelien: 'her hair has Shadoww magic! ;D'

Mornawen: 'Shadowy beautiful hair vs. shadowy precipices where spiders live'

Andeon: 'ooooh...are there spiders in this story too?'

Mithmenelien: 'yes there is!'

Byrcha: 'there are always spiders ... wink'

Andeon: 'I thought ungoliant was all I got of spiders...but YAAAYYY!! *claps his hands like a little girl*'

Hollyberye: 'we discussed spiders earlier today Andeon'

Andeon: 'of course you did...did you think of me? :)'

Byrcha: 'you have some catching up to do, young man *taps foot*'

Andeon: 'ewwww....elf cooties...'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, Beren met Ungolliant spider spawn a bit earlier!'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Just for fun…let’s compare Turin’s time with Nellas and Beren’s with Luthien in the secret wood, for they both walked the woods of Doriath hand in hand.'

Byrcha: 'right, I forgot Nellas (*shakesfist at Turin again*)'

Mithmenelien: 'oh! I liked Nellas so much!'

Hollyberye: 'As did I'

Mornawen: 'Well, Turin never seemed to care for the elf maidens, neither Nellas nor Finduilas.'

Byrcha: 'well, an interesting contrast -- Beren faces his fate and doesn't blink; Turin, well ...'

Mithmenelien: 'Nellas and Turin were children so it was more inocent then with Beren and Luthien'

Byrcha: '... in regard to Nellas/Luthien I meant'

Hollyberye: 'I feel that Turin could have fallen deeply in love but was too self-absorbed, and more so, his thoughts turned inward as he aged. Beleg said that he lived with his heart and mind far away. But Beren had a very similar tragedy befall him.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Holly'

Byrcha: 'I recall thinking of Turin as being the cautionary tale which Beren and Aragorn overcame'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'Do you think Tolkien actually really enjoyed taking a story and revising it to be quite different—like Beren versus Turin versus Aragorn’s tales? Is it my imagination that he actually does this a lot?'

Hollyberye: 'But I love that description, Byrcha--a cautionary tale'

Byrcha: 'as in: Q: 'what would Turin do?' A: 'Don't do that!''

Hollyberye: 'though Turin came after Beren'

Mornawen: 'I think Tolkien enjoyed telling various kinds of tales.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think he works with a story over and over until perfection but never actually reached it or had time to finish it.'

Hollyberye: 'which is too bad'

Mornawen: 'Testing himself, as it were. He even used different poetic styles for the two Lays.'

Hollyberye: 'How I wish he had made this chapter a full novel'

Byrcha: 'aye!'

Mornawen: 'Yes!'

Mithmenelien: 'oh, that would have been lovely!'

Byrcha: 'but he might have edited out some of the things that I love about it'

Hollyberye: 'that's a really great point about the different styles of poetry too'

Hollyberye: 'I decided this is a good stopping point--the next text and discussion point are more on the meeting of the two and I feel it will be a good transition for next session'

Byrcha: 'sounds good!'

Hollyberye: 'we have two more Sundays then a two week break'

Andeon: 'excellent - I'll have time to read :)'

Hollyberye: 'of those of you still here, how late could you normally stay?'

Dorholbytla: 'Thanks all for the discussion'

Andeon: 'all caught up by next week, and with a perfect reason to log in on time...er...'

Hollyberye: 'Andeon we start at 4:15 after Andune Ensemble'

Andeon: 'perfect'

Hollyberye: 'great!'

Hollyberye: 'several of our friends could not make it today'

Byrcha: 'running til 5:30 works for me, though if that is too late for others we can work around'

Hollyberye: 'well there is a lot of material to cover--it is so compact'

Mithmenelien: 'it works for me to, I get a bit tired but it's worth it, it's so much fun! :D'

Hollyberye: 'Well, thank you all so very much!!!'

Byrcha: 'Thank you Holly!'

Dorholbytla: 'Thank you Holly for hosting!'

Hollyberye: 'It enhances my enjoyment and understanding hugely to do it this way'

Mornawen: 'Thanks, Holly, thank you, everyone!'

Mithmenelien: 'Thank Holly and everyone!'

Andeon: 'thank you very much holly, for resurrecting my 2nd favorite thing to do in LOTRO :)'

Hollyberye: 'Excellent Andeon!'

Hollyberye: 'many thanks everyone! We have the thread in the forum, don't forget'

Byrcha: 'There will be a quiz next time, Andeon'

Andeon: 'yay! quiz!!!'

Hollyberye: 'hehe yes we must initiate him'

Andeon: '*looks over on Mithmenelien's paper*'

Session Three: Sunday, 6 March 2016, following Andune Ensemble, 4:15 PM server time
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

I'm really sorry to have been away for this meeting, it sounds like such an interesting one! :\ I've read all the notes though and plan to be there next week.

I was inspired to do a little DeviantArt crawl for Luthien and Beren pictures. Here are some lovely ones:

Luthien and not-Beren
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Luthien and Beren. I LOVE her eyebrows?
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And Finrod, for Holly :p
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

I was also very sorry to have missed the meeting! Thank you so much for posting the leg, Holly.

Elimraen - oh, I do love looking through all of the Tolkien-inspired works on Deviant Art!


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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

I really love this art so much--thank you for posting. I also went searching when I created the ad for The Landy Lately (well, gave the material to Wellie to create), and this is what I picked (though I cropped it a lot). Wellie, being the conscientious editor she is, gave me the artist's email to get permission to use it but the artist has never written me back. So instead we used a screenshot of the Luthien statue near Elrond's house--not at all the same.




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I missed both of you at the book club!

Holly

P.S. Those are my family-genetic eyebrows! Mine aren't as thick and dark as they used to be but my son sure has them! I just *knew* we had elf blood!

P.P.S. Thank you for the image of Finrod. However, I see him as even more spectacularly gorgeous than that :D. He's fast becoming my favorite just slightly flawed but utterly appealing Tolkien hero. I will give him a song when I find the right music.
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

*Eyebrow envy*

Well, in my DeviantArt mooch (I know Lhinn, I could spend hours there!) I've developed a fascination with Maedhros, and Aegnor and Andreth. And I really want to read about Finrod! Where oh where is my Silmarillion? D:

That picture is so sweet Holly :) I especially like Beren's posture.


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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

Just a reminder that we are meeting on Sunday following the Andune Ensemble concert...approximately 4:15PM in /lmbbookclub channel plus at The Bird and Baby Inn.

We will be picking up where we left off--Beren and Luthien's meeting, followed by the immediate aftermath in Doriath. This is about at page five of the chapter (in the hardback).

As I stated in our last session, we will be taking a detour to cover background on King Finrod Felagund, as he is a pivotal character in the tale.

I look forward to the discussion!

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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Tale of Beren and Lúthien
Session Three - 6 March 2016


Attendees: Hollyberye, Elimraen, Mithmenelian, Andeon, Byrcha, Cynemna, Darnesa and some shy lurkers

Hollyberye: 'Welcome to the Lonely Mountain Band Book Club! 'We meet today to continue discussion of the Tale of Beren and Lúthien. The primary text we are using is from “The Silmarillion,” Chapter 19, Of Beren and Lúthien, but I am also interspersing that with excerpts from the “Lay of Leithian.” 'I will summarize some of the text before each discussion point, so although reading the material in advance is wonderful, if you were unable to, I feel you can still follow along well and participate in the discussion. You are also welcome to raise additional discussion points, of course! I will edit the chat log and post it in our forum thread. I do not plan to spend as much time editing it this go-round, mainly just correcting obvious typos. To begin:'

Hollyberye: 'Last time we got as far as the initial meeting of Beren and Lúthien in the secret woods.'

Hollyberye: 'She laid her hand in his. “In elven dale that maiden fair about him cast her shadowy hair, and under morrowless moonlit skies he kissed her trembling starlit eyes. In hour charmed there soft a kiss she placed upon his muted lips.” The Lay describes Beren as being in anguish when the two are separated: “Oh flower of Elfland all too fair for mortal heart! The woods are bare. Thus began the anguish Beren paid for that great doom upon him laid, the deathless love of Lúthien, too fair for love of mortal Men; and in his doom was Lúthien snared, the deathless in his dying shared; and Fate them forged a binding chain of living love and mortal pain.”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please comment on this profound meeting, beyond what we already covered, especially if you were not here last time—but all comments/thoughts are welcome.'

Byrcha: 'It implies that she gave up her immortality, right there?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I felt it did imply they--excellent point to raise'

Byrcha: 'like: poof, you're mortal'

Elimraen: 'Well, I love the idea of love being so powerful that it's 'doom' for them both, even though that's not necessarily a happy thought.'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien never fully explains the mechanism of that'

Byrcha: 'I had always wondered about that, like with Arwen too'

Mithmenelien: 'much of the text does implie the future before it has happened, I find'

Hollyberye: 'Last time we established that doom is used a lot here as "fate" but I will still be bringing that up'

Andeon: 'lets see - this is from a previous book club, but have you covered the fact that *doom* the way Tolkien uses it, isn't *necessarily* bad, so much as it is just a very...powerful...fate'

Andeon: 'oh...and there it is :)'

Byrcha: 'Tolkien wrote this before LOTR, right? perhaps it was essentially a draft and he meant to return to it'

Hollyberye: 'They were so fated that it was inevitable--although really in the story she officially loses her immortality much later'

Andeon: 'problem with chatting in text :)'

Hollyberye: 'we talked about doom some last week--Mith may have been the one to clarify that'

Andeon: 'as far as I know, no, Tolkien didn't *write* this before LOTR, he *plotted* it out somewhat beforehand, somewhat concurrently, with the development of LOTR'

Mithmenelien: 'I read another part in the Silmarilion there doom was also used as a word for judgment or the rule/decision of a lord, so maybe there is more to the word than just this very dark version of the word doom?'

Andeon: 'my understanding was that Tolkien created the story of the hobbit long before any content of LOTR - then, he began developing his fictional elvish language, and started plotting out both the pre-history of middle earth to explain plot the progress/evolution of his language, as well as started to create the story of LOTR'

Andeon: 'and then, began to re-write some of the hobbit story that he had been telling his children, and incorporate it in to the world of LOTR that he was then developing'

Hollyberye: 'well he wrote the original version of this tale in 1917'

Andeon: 'but I could have any of those events out of order'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien revised soooo very much it is hard to keep track when he had what ideas'

Elimraen: 'I can understand using doom for fate, or destiny.

Hollyberye: 'Yes, now I have even started to think of it as fate (as well). Any other comments on that opening text on their meeting? If you
have a comment on an earlier point, it is always fine to make it, even if I have moved ahead.'

Hollyberye: 'Then Lúthien often came to him and they went in secret through the woods from spring to summer. No others of the Children of Ilúvatar have had joy so great, though the time was brief. But Daeron the minstrel also loved Lúthien and he betrayed her meetings to King Thingol.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What do you think of Daeron?'

Byrcha: '*mutters* way to go, Daeron'

Byrcha: 'Daeron: 'Surely she'll love me if I betray her''

Elimraen: 'Haha'

Hollyberye: 'He reminds me somewhat of the Elf who was jealous of Turin--Saelros? was that his name?'

Elimraen: 'Me too Holly!'

Byrcha: 'Yes, can't think of the name, but there was a similar betrayer type'

Hollyberye: 'I have strong feelings about Daeron:'

Andeon: 'I think to a certain degree we have to keep in mind - as I understand it, the British have an entirely different sentimentality about "proper" marriages when it comes to royalty'

Hollyberye: 'that is true, she is half-Maia and half-Princess'

Mithmenelien: 'maybe jealous people tend to act similarly'

Andeon: 'it might not be just pure jealousy, although it's certainly partly there'

Hollyberye: 'The Lay describes Daeron’s fiery eyes, haunting the gloom, as he secretly watches the “two lovers linked in dancing sweet.” I despise jealousy and blame it for much of the world’s ills, past and present. I think Tolkien does a great job influencing plot with quite believable jealous actions.'

Andeon: 'there might also be some genuine confusion - she's royalty, and elven - should couldn't *possibly* ACTUALLY fall in love with a human - it's absurd...so clearly, I should tell her father that something is up...'

Hollyberye: 'While he probably thought it was noble reasons, he was clearly jealous. Up to this point, he had her undivided attention'

Byrcha: 'aye, totally understandable. but all we hear is that he loves her and betrays her'

Hollyberye: 'He played the flute for her to dance'

Andeon: 'true...jealousy is notorious for fabricating astoundingly complex justifications...'

Hollyberye: 'yes--a terrible emotion, so painful and troublesome'

Elimraen: 'Yes, it's quite easy to convince yourself that you're in the right.'

Andeon: 'on the other hand, I'd like to point out that Beren's falling in love with Luthien isn't necessarily healthy - at least ,not at first'

Andeon: 'based on the description, Beren isn't quite in his right mind for the first part of their love affair'

Hollyberye: 'Andeon, do you mean, because he is a desperate man?'

Hollyberye: 'after his arduous hellish journey?'

Mithmenelien: 'I think an elf who is and thinks of himself as a noble creature can't just do something clearly out of jealousy, but he has to have a another reasonable and to him true reason for his actions, to make them just.'

Byrcha: 'I'm still struck by the similarity of how Beren falls for Luthien being just like how Thingol falls for Melian'

Hollyberye: 'Excellent point, Byrcha'

Andeon: '..."and he fell into an enchantment...yada yada beautiful elf...but she vanished from his sight; and he became dumb, as on that is bound under a spell, and he strayed long in the woods, wild and wary as a beast, seeking for her..."'

Byrcha: 'well, such moments are not exactly the time for rational thought'

Andeon: 'the language implies that he's not entirely conscious of his actions for a period of time there as he "hunts" her in the woods, for all intents and purposes'

Byrcha: 'Beren: "Hmm, maybe I really shouldn't fall for that mysterious Elf-babe after all;''

Hollyberye: 'There is a certian amount of suspension of disbelief, though--it just happens that way in Tolkien, usually'

Andeon: 'it's also indicative of his pain and torment...at least 4 years of hunting and avenging against orcs and monsters, then the travel through Gorgoroth and Dungortheb...'

Hollyberye: 'yes!'

Hollyberye: 'And suddenly--oh my--such perfect beauty to the eye and the ear'

Andeon: 'welll, no - *why* he falls for the elf is fairly clear - he's been brought very low, and she's...well...quite the opposite of the horrifying evil he's been surrounded by - so, *why* he falls for her so hard is fairly understandable'

Andeon: 'it's just not necessarily very healthy way to start a relationship, is all I'm observing'

Byrcha: 'true. but relationships in noble houses would have been arranged, right -- and they are both noble'

Andeon: 'and thanks to doom, fate, and the mystical seeing into the truth of things that elves often have, we can assume that she was able to see past all the crazy in him at the moment, to the kind of man he could be when...well...less crazy'

Byrcha: 'even setting aside the elf/human issue, they wouldn't have likely just fallen for each other and married without consent of both sets of parents'

Andeon: 'well, Beren's parents are dead, so that's kinda a non-issue :)'

Byrcha: 'oh, right, but he's still a noble right?'

Hollyberye: 'yes his House is renowned'

Andeon: 'as far as I can remember, yes...so, yah, he'd have no self-doubt issues about marrying above his station'

Hollyberye: 'King Thingol is angry and both in grief and amazed when he speaks to Lúthien. She makes her father swear an oath not to slay or imprison Beren. She brings Beren to the throne like an honored guest.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Comments on Thingol’s reaction to hearing that Lúthien has been walking with a mortal man in the woods.'

Andeon: 'Important note - she actually intervenes to bring Beren forward as an honored guest'

Andeon: 'cuz that's not how Thingol was going to have him brought there'

Byrcha: 'I find it beyond hypocritical, given how he met Melian :P'

Mithmenelien: 'I think of Beren then I first saw Luthien as someone suffering from that symptom that soldiers get after war, (I can't remember the name of it) so thinking about him in that mindset it must have been otherworldly to come upon her, like seeing an angel, or an oasis in a dessert. (from the previous point)'

Hollyberye: 'Andeon, I just can't copy in every word--but yes you are right'

Andeon: 'it's not *quite* hypocritical - Melian was the woman he fell in love with - Luthien is his daughter - totally different :)'

Byrcha: '...but I think his reaction as a father is totally understandable (still hypocritical though)'

Mithmenelien: 'fathers throughout history have thought like that a lot I think'

Hollyberye: 'I understand Thingol's reaction, but yes it is hypocritical to a degree'

Byrcha: 'so, like Daeron's jealousy, it plays on the human condition'

Andeon: 'fathers and kings - remember, Luthien isn't just a daughter - she's a princess, she's an ELF (which might be an even bigger deal - hard to say)'

Byrcha: 'true, there is a bit of anti-human racism to his reaction'

Andeon: 'sounds like Tolkien actually makes a point to point out just how important it is that Thingol holds elves above the race of men...'

Hollyberye: 'Though Thingol is very receptive to Turin later on'

Hollyberye: 'and treats him like a son'

Byrcha: 'it is an important emphasis, making the union of Beren and Luthien all the more unique/important'

Mithmenelien: 'maybe he learned is lesson by then'

Andeon: 'interesting - wonder if there's that bloodlines thing...'

Byrcha: 'Wouldn't have been much of a story if Thingol had said, 'Eh, go ahead, date my daughter''

Andeon: '8 simple silmarillions for dating my elvish daughter...'

Hollyberye: 'well partly it could be that Beren's line aided Finrod's line, but Hurin aided Thingol'

Hollyberye: 'Beren is filled with dread before the throne but Lúthien speaks for him: “He is Beren son of Barahir, lord of Men, mighty foe of

Morgoth, the tales of whose deeds is become a song even among the Elves”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Why do you think Tolkien chose to have Beren initially in dread and mute at this meeting, when Beren was clearly

the bravest man of his time?'

Elimraen: 'Meeting the parents syndrome.'

Byrcha: 'I found that curious also'

Elimraen: 'How much would he have known of Thingol and Melian before meeting them?'

Andeon: 'sometimes I wish I was British - having an insight into propriety when speaking to royalty might clear some of these questions up...I'm just not sure...'

Elimraen: 'I'm British and I still don't know ;)'

Byrcha: 'Interesting question: would he have met Elves before, let alone royalty, let alone Maia?'

Hollyberye: 'he seemed to be mainly with his father'

Andeon: 'just a thing I noticed - the two things that keep Beren initially silent are the majesty of Thingol AND the splendour (with the "ou") of Menegroth'

Mithmenelien: 'he is still human even if he is brave, being in a marvelous elvish city and being faced with its imposing king who also is the father of your love interest must take a lot, maybe the brave part was that he was able to speak at all, most normal people might not have been able to'

Andeon: 'the city awed Beren - that seems interesting to me'

Byrcha: 'He'd probably heard stories, like Bilbo on the road to meet Elrond'

Hollyberye: 'very unfortunate Tolkien did not make this a full blown book'

Elimraen: 'Oh so it's the place as well as the person, that's interesting'

Byrcha: 'I can see that, the place would be overwhelming too'

Byrcha: 'especially after living in the wilderness for years, too'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mithmenelian--great point--the text does mention how imposing the place was'

Andeon: 'also, based on the story - Beren has been essentially alone for nearly 4 years, with the sole exception of Luthien, hasn't he?'

Andeon: 'at least 4 - all the time in Doriath after the death of his clan, plus the travel time to get to Menegroth'

Andeon: 'also - sorry, but I lost track of all the people - who is Felagund? sounds like he could be elvish, given the context of Beren's speech'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod Felagund is very critical coming up'

Andeon: 'in which case, Beren has at least a sense of his own royalty, plus possibly a gift of recognition given to his family by elves...'

Hollyberye: 'Beren looks at Lúthien then Melian and words were put into his mouth.'

Hollyberye: 'Fear leaves him and pride of the eldest house of Men returns: “My fate, O King, led me hither…but here I have found what I sought not indeed, but finding I would possess forever.”'

Hollyberye: 'Beren goes on to eloquently describe how Lúthien is the greatest treasure ever, the fairest of all the Children of the World.”'

Byrcha: 'I thought Beren's speech was quite bold, despite his initial overwelmedness though he does over step'

Mithmenelien: 'In comparison, imagine in todays world suddenly being in some important place meeting a celebrity or a world leader or meeting an author like Tolkien himself, I imagine one might be a bit shocked, not knowing what to say at first.'

Andeon: 'yah...subtlety is not a feature of his speech :)'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Was it something in the eyes of Lúthien then Melian that suddenly made him eloquent?'

Byrcha: 'true! but he recovers quickly. Yes, BTW, President Obama, I'd like to marry your daughter.'

Byrcha: 'It does fit with the love-conquers-all theme'

Hollyberye: 'I just wondered if there was something significant/magical in the eyes--a mind link maybe???'

Elimraen: 'He certainly doesn't seem to fear Melian in the same way does he?'

Hollyberye: 'No, he almost has a connection'

Andeon: 'given the general writing style of Tolkien, I don't think there's anything explicitly magical about his glance at Melian'

Byrcha: 'I wondered that about Melian, was hoping for a bit more about her -- she doesn't say a lot, even though she seems to know a lot'

Andeon: 'but yes - Melian does seem to see a lot more about the situation than Thingol does...'

Hollyberye: 'Thingol claims Beren has earned death for these words but for the oath he swore to Lúthien in haste.'

Andeon: 'my *guess*, is that when Beren glances at Melian, he's recognizing in her that whatever her feelings on the issues, they're wiser and more far-seeing than Thingol's problems'

Byrcha: 'Remind me: Is Thingol already caught up in the story of the Silmarils (doom), or is this the tipping point?'

Mithmenelien: 'I do think they both helped him, and Melian also seems to have a very soothing influence'

Hollyberye: 'yes he knows'

Hollyberye: 'And “Daeron the piper leant there pale against a pillar. His fingers frail there touched a flute that whispered not; his eyes were dark; his heart was hot.” Beren reveals the ring he wears, the badge of Finfarin and explains (in the Lay) that Felagund of Nargothrond swore a last bond and love to Barahir who saved him in Northern battlefields. Melian whispers to Thingol to forgo his pride and states clearly that not by his hand will Beren be slain, for his fate lies far and free and she tells Thingol to take heed. Melian whispers to Thingol to forgo his pride and states clearly that not by his hand will Beren be slain, for his fate lies far and free and she tells Thingol to take heed.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Does Melian have the upper hand in this marriage, as a Maia? And any other points. I'm using the Lay to augment the sometimes sparse text. Plus it is so eloquent and sometimes gives us more background'

Byrcha: 'I found it odd, since she is referred to for her wisdom elsewhere, that Thingol seems to ignore the gravity of her advice, which is why I wondered if he already was affected by the Silmaril -- it's out of character for him a bit'

Hollyberye: 'Thingol then devises a horrendous bride price. “Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown; and then, if she will,

Lúthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel.”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Is this the most famous bride price set in all the annals of literature? Or is it a reworking of earlier folklore or fairy tales that are just as monumental? And does it color your impression of Thingol?'

Byrcha: 'heh, I just revisited the tale of the Golden Fleece today, which is amazingly similar'

Mithmenelien: 'In that last point I see Thingol's temper a bit like the sun, all hot and radiate with a sharp shining radiance, while Melian like a calm serene Moon goddess with bottomless wisdom.'

Byrcha: 'nice point, Mith'

Hollyberye: 'ahh nice imagery Mith'

Mithmenelien: 'Melian is silent in her wisdom, she already knows what is going to happen so she is more calm about it'

Hollyberye: 'I’ve never been fond of Thingol, though I warmed to him some in his treatment of Turin, but I really think this was a bit of evil.'

Byrcha: 'that's where this seems like fate, she knows what could happen, but doesn't really warn her husband'

Andeon: 'regarding your question - I'm not sure it really counts as a bride price - he really intends Beren to fail...it's not really an honest "price"'

Byrcha: 'yes, Thingol I think is seduced by the Silmarils'

Elimraen: 'It is extremely harsh - he must think he's sending him to his death.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, he is certain he will fail'

Andeon: 'I'm pretty sure he's counting on it'

Hollyberye: 'A bit sarcastically Beren calls that a little price, to sell an Elven-daughter for gems.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Is it not significant that Beren looks in the eyes of Melian? Are they communicating in some way?'

Byrcha: 'It wasn't a bride-price, but the quest for the Golden Fleece was a similar suicide-mission given by a king to a boon-seeker'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, good points'

Mithmenelien: 'Like many Greek myths, a King need someone to die with out outright killing him, so he sends him on an impossible task, which the hero somehow manage to do anyway.'

Hollyberye: 'It is referred to as a bride price for convenience'

Byrcha: 'exactly. Thingol had promised not to kill Beren directly.'

Byrcha: 'but, hey, suicide missions don't break the promise wink'

Hollyberye: 'right'

Hollyberye: 'Beren leaves. Melian says that this was cunning counsel from Thingol, but if her eyes have not lost their sight, this is ill for him. “You have doomed your daughter, or yourself.” Lúthien is silent and ceases to sing in Doriath.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: If Melian is so powerful and gifted with the sight, why can’t she convince Thingol to reverse this mission?'

Andeon: 'Ithink again, the glances at Melian simply confirm that Beren and Melian share a perspective - that whatever Thingol wants is eclipsed by something greater'

Andeon: 'that comment about "little price do elves ask for daughters"...it's not just sarcastic - I think it's kind of dismissive'

Byrcha: 'I wondered why she didn't say something beforehand.'

Hollyberye: 'some greater fate'

Mithmenelien: 'because the mission is already destined to happen, she knows it is as it has to be I think.'

Andeon: 'I think Beren knows that Thingol's relatively petty witholding of his daughter is going to come to something big and doesn't know it'

Byrcha: 'They don't discuss it (right?) but Beren is the first to somehow get through the Girdle, which Melian foretold'

Hollyberye: 'yes correct, the first mortal man to penetrate the magical girdle'

Byrcha: 'did they let other Elves in? was it only an anti-human/anti-evil girdle?'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, she fortold it but I don't think she told Thingol about it'

Elimraen: 'I don't know the story well, so this could be completely wrong, but could he also be seeing that she has confidence in him? And that was why he was able to speak before Thingol as well?'

Andeon: 'possible, but honestly - I don't get much confidence from Melian...'

Andeon: 'it's more like...resignation'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Elimraen, I felt her looks gave him some sort of confidence, if nothing else'

Mithmenelien: 'they let the elves that Thingol liked into the realm.'

Andeon: 'Melian's words and acts seem to convey that she realizes that something inevitable is going to happen, and Beren is going to be a part of that'

Byrcha: 'its unspoken/undescribed alas, but I can see that Beren might have become inspired by looking at both Melian and Luthien'

Hollyberye: 'Definitely other Elves had been there (we will cover some of that in background)'

Byrcha: 'otherwise, his haughtiness is a bit too much like Turin!'

Hollyberye: 'yes!'

Andeon: 'to be fair - there is a bit of arrogance and quite frankly disrespect coming from Beren as well'

Hollyberye: 'yes Andeon'

Byrcha: 'true, but Thingol did insult him repeatedly (its good to be king)'

Hollyberye: 'Beren begins his journey and gradually turns his feet toward Nargothrond, “being destitute, without hope or counsel.”'

Hollyberye: 'Here the Elves have kept unceasing watch, with hidden towers and field archers. Beren is aware of them and holds his ring aloft and even cries out regularly, “I am Beren son of Barahir, friend of Felagund. Take me to your King!”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Any comments on this journey thus far, especially comments on the geographic regions through which he passed?'

Byrcha: 'it's a bit like Turin Redux!'

Hollyberye: 'Turin's story doesn't come that much more later, comparatively'

Hollyberye: 'The hunters assemble, make him halt, but bow to him upon seeing the ring. The Elves lead Beren by the light of the moon to King

Finrod Felagund. Here, Felagund needs no ring to see this is the kin of Beor.'

Hollyberye: 'Beren unfolds his painful story of his father’s death and of his joy of Luthien.'

Byrcha: 'a bit curious, that he goes to Nargothrond rather than directly on his errand'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I thought so too, Byrcha'

Byrcha: 'but he does rightly realize he could use some help/counsel'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and he knows how much weight that ring carries'

Andeon: 'quick history question - who was it that decreed the doom of Feanor's line?'

Byrcha: 'Mandos, I think'

Andeon: 'sounds right - i thought it was one of the primary Maia'

Byrcha: '(though, he decreed all dooms I suppose, kinda like the Valar made him as the one who could say all that stuff to let the rest of them off the hook :P )'

Hollyberye: 'We have reached the point where I intend to deviate and provide information and discuss Finrod Felagund's background as he is so key, to illuminate the story more. I would like to take that up next week'

Mithmenelien: 'In that other version in the lost tales he did go more directly on his errand, and Felagund did not take part of that story at all I think.'

Byrcha: 'Interesting about the different version, I look forward to it'

Hollyberye: 'I propose we wrap up today and next week we will begin with the background of Finrod Felagund'

Byrcha: 'Sounds like a good plan to me'

Hollyberye: 'Then we will have two Sundays off--for Day on the Greenfields and then Easter'

Hollyberye: 'I will post the chat log in our forum and remind everyone of next week's session there too. We had several who could not be here today'

Byrcha: 'Thanks Holly, thanks everyone!'

Hollyberye: 'Thanks everyone! Plus any more comments on today's material?'

Elimraen: 'Thanks, this was so interesting :) Looking forward to next week!'

Mithmenelien: 'it is always so much fun being here with the book club, thanks all! :D'

Hollyberye: 'I respect all of you so much--such great minds! And everyone brings something different to the discussion'

Andeon: 'thanks for all your work Holly - sorry, got kinda caught up tracking the doom of the Noldor prophecy of the north thingy'

Hollyberye: 'I accidentally cut some of my text today but think I managed okay lol'

Andeon: 'near the end there - there was *suspicions it was Mandos himself*, doing the will of none other than Manwe'

Mithmenelien: 'you did great Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'That's okay Andeon--so next week we detour a bit on Finrod--I have already prepared that material'

Byrcha: 'well, the fate of the line of Feanor IS kinda important ...'

Elimraen: 'Thanks so much for leading Holly! And night night all.'

Andeon: 'but yes, good work, and thank you for this - I know it can be tough, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort!'

Hollyberye: 'night night everyone!!'

Byrcha: '*waves*'

Mithmenelien: 'good night all! :D'

Hollyberye: 'Hope to see you next Sunday at 4:15 :D along with some of our other regulars who couldn't make it'

Session Four: Sunday, 13 March 2016, @4:15PM following the Andune Ensemble (Note: The servertime will be on Daylight Savings Time next Sunday!)
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

A reminder...the book club meets today, about 4:15PM server time following the Andune Ensemble concert. We meet at The Bird and Baby Inn and also chat in /joinchannel lmbbookclub.

After today, we don't meet again until April 3rd, due to the Greenfields event and Easter Sunday.

Today's focus will be background on King Finrod Felagund, who is crucial to the next milestone in Beren and Luthien's story.

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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

I was hoping to make it this week but we'll likely have company at that time. I'll look forward to reading the chat logs! Thank you again for posting them!


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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Tale of Beren and Luthien
Session 4 - 13 March 2016
The Bird and Baby Inn and /lmbbookclub


Attendees: Hollyberye, Elimraen, Falleriel, Darnesa, Malvy, Malphos, Athelthryth, Bregedir, Byrcha, Shakestoor, Byrcha, Andeon, Mithmenelien

Early arrivers received gifts of mead from Elimraen! It helped to quench our thirst.

Hollyberye:'Welcome to the Lonely Mountain Band Book Club! We meet today to continue discussion of the Tale of Beren and Lúthien. The primary text we are using is from “The Silmarillion,” Chapter 19, Of Beren and Lúthien, but I am also interspersing that with excerpts from the “Lay of Leithian.” I will summarize some of the text before each discussion point, so although reading the material in advance is wonderful, if you were unable to, I feel you can still follow along well and participate in the discussion. You are also welcome to raise additional discussion points, of course! I will edit the chat log and post it in our forum thread. I do not plan to spend as much time editing it this go-round, mainly just correcting obvious typos. To begin: Last time we ended with Beren’s arrival at Nargothrond and find him unburdening his painful story of his father’s death and of his joy of Lúthien to King Finrod Felagund.'

Hollyberye: 'Background: As stated previously, I feel it would illuminate the story to discuss Finrod Felagund. I will sketch in some details but I hope you will add to it and we can also discuss his back story. I feel he is too important to the tale not to have a strong sense of, like Beleg in The Children of Hurin. Unfortunately, I have a lot of text with not as many discussion points on this section—but please feel free to post any comments and questions as I go along.'

Elimraen: I looked up Finrod in the Silmarillion index and have been trying to read all the mentions of him with their context but there are quite a lot! :)

Hollyberye: 'Excellent! Welcome new folks!'

Hollyberye: 'He is the youngest of the lords of the House of Finwë who led their people out of Aman. Finrod is the head of the House of Finarfin, among the four highest in prominence among the Noldorin princes. He has three younger brothers and one sister, Galadriel. Galadriel is known as the most beautiful of all of the house of Finwë. Her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin. Her hair is said to have inspired Fëanor to craft the Silmarils.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: If you have particular knowledge of the other siblings, now is a good time to post that (or at any time during this Finrod background section). I will bring up Galadriel again. But Finrod had younger brothers.'

Malvy: 'I have to admit I sure know about Galadriel, but who are the others?'

Hollyberye: 'Not much is written about two of the other brothers. But Finrod's successor figures in Second Age events, I know. He was the brother of Galadriel, Angrod, Aegnor and Orodreth. Tolkien will write more about Orodreth.'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod’s most outstanding physical feature is a reflection of his one-quarter Vanyarin heritage: the legendary radiant golden hair of what is sometimes called the Golden House of Finarfin.'

Falleriel: 'Mmm in Tolkien gateway, Orodreth is written as Finrod's nephew (son of Angrod).'

Hollyberye: 'Ohhh sources do vary! I have discovered, because Tolkien revised his stories'

Falleriel: Indeedie! I tried to do a search on the others but aye, am only familiar with Galadriel to start with. Agreed re: edits, makes for some interesting studies'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What Vanyar characteristics do they have—Finrod especially, but also Galadriel?'

Hollyberye: 'I feel some of the characteristics they have that are very Vanyarian are besides the golden hair, Music--an affinity for playing it, Poetry--a talent for that'

Malvy: 'what does count as Vanyar characteristic? They are described as .. well, a bit into the clouds (to speak from a hobbit point of view), not very down to earth'

Hollyberye: 'an ability to influence others “magically” with poetry and music'

Hollyberye: 'I feel Tolkien really does distinguish them from the Noldor's'

Elimraen: 'I didn't know about those but you see them quite clearly in Galadriel when the Fellowship come there'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What are their Noldor characteristics? -- so any comments on distinguishing those two are good :D'

Elimraen: 'With my limited reading this past week, they have a very fearsome side to them.'

Falleriel: 'I think the key characteristic of the Noldor is in their pursuit of lore and crafts.'

Hollyberye: 'As to the Noldor--they seem restless and less-dutiful, more on their defiance later if it does not come up now, and they seem more ambitious'

Hollyberye: 'Other key facts: Perhaps most critical is the decision of the Noldor to come to Middle-earth. As Galadriel says to Melian when she is questioned about their flight, “we were not driven forth, but came of our own will, and against that of the Valar. And through great peril and in despite of the Valar for this purpose we came: to take vengeance upon Morgoth, and regain what he stole.”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: If you have additional background you would like to share about this, please post it here.'

Falleriel: 'Most notably of course, is the Silmarils, but also from the 'Lost Road', "great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers. The Noldor were changeful in speech, for they had great love of words, and sought ever to find names more fit for all things they knew or imagined"'

Hollyberye: 'Falleriel, that is great'

Malphos: 'I think that one is an interesting part'

Hollyberye: 'for those who just joined, Finrod plays a key role in this tale so we are doing his background'

Falleriel: 'The 'path' Tolkien chose to elaborate on was Feanor's greatest work (the Silmarils), and thereafter the Noldor were shadowed by with those events.'

Hollyberye: 'yes they were shadowed by it, great point'

Malphos: 'we know and think (at least I) about the Noldor as skilled in doing, manipulating things. But their skill with words is a different side in my humble opinion

Hollyberye: 'Okay more on Finrod but please feel free to post any comments as I go along!'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod tires of hunting and decides to go off exploring on his own. He first hears strange noises and then comes upon Men in the forest. In his fascination he does not immediately reveal himself, but hides himself in the trees and observes them. Love for them stirred in his heart.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: In the long history of men and Elf dealings, is this not unusual, an Elf feeling love for this race? And why do you think that is? Please share your thoughts on Finrod’s receptivity to the race of men.'

Elimraen: 'It does seem unusual. Again it reminds me of Beren. And I think Aegnor fell in love with a human too?'

Hollyberye: 'I think this must have been an early case of an Elf stumbling upon civilized men'

Malphos: 'I do not remember, are there other recordings of 'first sightings'? all else is later encounters, when the typical pattern of misunderstandings, etc., already has set in. Or?'

Hollyberye: 'After the Men have fallen asleep, Finrod goes to sit “beside their dying fire where none kept watch; and he took up a rude harp which Bëor had laid aside, and he played music upon it such as the ears of Men had not heard; for they had as yet no teachers in the art, save only the Dark Elves in the wild lands” So this is Beren's father here. The men awaken and listen to Finrod’s playing and singing. Each thought that he was in some fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake also beside him; but they did not speak or stir while Felagund still played, because of the beauty of the music and the wonder of the song. Wisdom was in the words of the Elven-king, and the hearts grew wiser that hearkened to him; for the things of which he sang, of the making of Arda, and the bliss of Aman beyond the shadows of the Sea, came as clear visions before their eyes, and his Elvish speech was interpreted in each mind according to its measure.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please share your thoughts on Finrod’s ability to play such moving music and to enchant the men by doing so.'

Hollyberye: 'I simply love how They did not speak the same language but Finrod bridged the gap with music and with mind-to-mind communication.'

Hollyberye: 'My other comment on this is: the incident of Finrod imparting knowledge through song implies two abilities that Finrod holds, the ability to elevate the power of music to a form of magic and to communicate directly mind-to-mind with those who do not share a common language with him.'

Malphos: 'this seems to be in some sense one of the most openly displayed magic in the story. They do speak different languages, but the meaning gets transported in real pictures'

Hollyberye: 'yes!

Andeon: 'from a purely personal point - I feel like it's almost Tolkien making a meta-commentary on the exchange of ideas through music, and to a more general extent, mediums of communication'

Hollyberye: 'each interprets according to their measure--love that'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, agreed Andeon'

Malphos: 'good point Andeon!'

Andeon: 'I've always been surprised by themes in music, when well written, to convey, at least in my own mind, a sense of some kind of story or activity'

Falleriel: 'Indeed, and like Andeon said it's an idea that translates very much to RL as well. (Also very popular in other fictions)'

Andeon: 'regardless of what the music was intended to convey'

Hollyberye: 'This story has more references to "magic" in it than most of Tolkien I feel'

Hollyberye: 'I am very enamored of that idea of transporting people with poetry and music (for I believe it!), but in this case it is implied to be very powerful, at least I think so'

Andeon: 'funny, partly unrelated note - I have a favorite x-files episode that touches on the same idea :)'

Hollyberye: 'Oh excellent!'

Hollyberye: 'More Finrod background key to the story: When Finrod and his siblings first visit their great-uncle King Elu Thingol in his protected enclave of Doriath, they are welcomed as kinsmen, despite Thingol and Melian’s mistrust of the Noldor in general and the sons of Fëanor in particular. Finrod is also famous for his construction of his elaborate underground fortress at Nargothrond, inspired by the style of Thingol’s caves at Menegroth. Finrod shares his hopes and dreams with Thingol, who recommends to him the location for the construction of Nargothrond. When Finrod installs himself in Nargothrond, Galadriel chooses to stay in Doriath and learn from Melian the Maia (by this time, she also has fallen in love with Celeborn).'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Though it is a bit of a detour, any comments about what Galadriel learned from Melian and its long-term impact?'

Hollyberye: 'Oh time to drink that excellent Mead Elimraen gave me! Oh my! That has a kick!'

Elimraen: ':)'

Malphos: 'maybe the wisdom we see in her much much later when the fellowship comes to her is a late fruit of that?'

Hollyberye: 'Malphos I must say I was intrigued by what she must have learned. I think fine honing that mind-to-mind connection must have been part of it and "seeing" things--fortelling'

Malphos: 'what we learn about that 'young' Galadriel seems to be quite different from the wiser, more settled one later in the rings books'

Hollyberye: 'yes it does! I would have liked a short story about her time studying with Melian'

Malphos: 'it might lack a bit of adventure, as Bingo would put it ^^'

Hollyberye: 'yes I adore Bingo :)'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod and his family, although welcomed by Thingol as kinsmen, do not speak honestly with Thingol or Melian regarding the deeds of the Noldor. They speak only of the murder of King Finwë and the theft of the Silmarils. They do not reveal the details of the kin-slaying at Alqualondë, the theft of the Swan ships of the Teleri, or the oath taken by the sons of Fëanor.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Your comments are welcome on this move of Finrod to withhold key pieces of information.'

Andeon: 'well, yah - I mean, lets face it - the line of Feanor has some issues...'

Hollyberye: 'Yes it certianly does, Andeon.'

Andeon: 'although - aren't we going to find that Thingol becomes enmeshed in the fate of Feanor anyway? Maybe they already know?'

Hollyberye: 'yes! I have more to say on Thingol's reaction to the withholding of information'

Hollyberye: 'Morgoth takes it upon himself to stir up trouble, much like he did with the vicious lies and rumors he spread to cause dissention among the Noldor in Aman. These stories reached Círdan at the coast, who reports everything he has heard to Thingol. At the time that Thingol receives the news, Finrod and his brothers are visiting Galadriel in Doriath. Thingol speaks in anger to Finrod, saying: 'Ill have you done to me, kinsman, to conceal so great matters from me. For now I have learned of all the evil deeds of the Noldor.'' Finrod’s answer is once again less than completely forthcoming. He refuses to betray his cousins: "What ill have I done you, lord? Or what evil deed have the Noldor done in all your realm to grieve you? Neither against your kinship nor against any of your people have they thought evil or done evil.''

Hollyberye: 'Thingol bans the use of the language of the Noldor throughout Doriath.'

Andeon: 'now...it's been awhile since I read all the deeds of the Noldor - but weren't there at least a couple of sons that were more reluctantly going along with the whole plan?'

Hollyberye: 'Can someone answer that?'

Malphos: 'Yes, I remember that they weren't all equally eager and quick in the actions,'

Byrcha: 'That sounds familiar: some were more invested than others'

Andeon: 'trying to find it now...but move forward with your study for the moment - I'm not entirely sure it's relevant to the topic at hand'

Malphos: 'but in the moment they choose to go on in the face of what Mandos said, it did not matter anymore, i think'

Hollyberye: 'well I am taking a diversion :)'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What do you think about Thingol’s reaction and action on banning the Noldor language? And how did Galadriel deal with this? Does anyone know her reaction?'

Andeon: 'honestly - I find it interesting that banning a *language* is considered a high punishment and/or protection of his people'

Byrcha: 'well, a linguist would think it a high punishment wink'

Andeon: 'again, might be a commentary on Tolkien himself and his views on the power/pervasiveness of language'

Malphos: 'what a difference to what we just learned. Before communication across language barriers, now language is used as a barrier (and punishment) in itself'

Elimraen: 'Yes it's wrapped up in a people's identity isn't it?'

Malphos: 'it sure is! a language is identity for people! dictators around the world have used that instrument'

Hollyberye: 'oh what an excellent comparison. Yes great point!'

Byrcha: 'but what is the timeline? Banning a language isn't instantaneous, even if the intent is'

Hollyberye: 'well with Thingol I am sure it was instantaneous. He didn't have that many Noldor visiting. I suppose they were so educated they could switch over (or leave). But Galadriel stayed'

Falleriel: 'and in addition to being a punishment then, it may be seen as Thingol protecting his people from the 'evil' ideas/ways of the Noldor (transmitted through language)'

Hollyberye: 'Good point Falleriel'

Falleriel: 'Also, Galadriel (and her siblings) are half Teleri anyways, she probably spoke Sindarin with Celeborn and others in Doriath.

Hollyberye: 'Yes I am certian Galadriel already could speak it, and would be a quick learner :)'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod’s withholding of information over a period of time, as well as his response to Thingol when confronted with the truth, reveal that Finrod has no second thoughts about where his loyalty lies—not with his mother’s people, or the Vanyar of his grandmother Indis, or, as much as he may admire his accomplishments, not with Thingol, but with the exiled Noldor. Then the sons of Finarfin departed from Menegroth with heavy hearts, perceiving how the words of Mandos would ever be made true, and that none of the Noldor that followed after Fëanor could escape from the shadow that lay upon his house.'

Hollyberye: 'Defeated and driven from their lands, Celegorm and Curufin ( Fëanor’s sons) flee to Nargothrond: Initially, the folk of Nargothrond welcome Celegorm and Curufin. They bring a significant defensive force along with them, which is to Nargothrond’s advantage. They are allies and brothers-in-arms of Finrod’s people, and Fëanor’s oath temporarily sleeps.'

Hollyberye: 'Here I note: Earlier in the Silmarillion we are informed--in Chapter 15, Of the Noldor in Beleriand: Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: ‘An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.’'

Hollyberye: '(NOTE: Now we are caught up with our place in the tale.)'

Andeon: 'see, now there's a tragic sentiment...'

Hollyberye: 'yes Andeon, you are right'

Andeon: 'Finrod has forsaken any offspring so that they should not inherent the doom of his household...'

Hollyberye: 'Things, however, become complicated when Beren arrives. He shows Finrod the ring of his ancestor Barahir and calls upon Finrod’s sworn oath by requesting that Finrod assist him in securing a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown.'

Andeon: 'that's some impressive self-aware self-destructive tendencies there'

Elimraen: 'That's so sad sad'

Hollyberye: 'What a sad burden to carry. Those **oaths** of Middle-earth! so dangerous and fated'

Hollyberye: 'Things, however, become complicated when Beren arrives. He shows Finrod the ring of his ancestor Barahir and calls upon Finrod’s sworn oath by requesting that Finrod assist him in securing a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown.'

Hollyberye: 'Felagund is filled with wonder and disquiet because he sees the oath he swore was now coming as foretold by Galadriel.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: I am a bit confused about who foretold the oath’s outcome, it sounds to me like Finrod himself did.'

Hollyberye: 'at some point I thought I read Galadriel foretold it--But it seems Finrod himself did'

Byrcha: 'you mean way back when, in the West?'

Hollyberye: 'maybe!'

Hollyberye: 'or even just back at Thingol's'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What do you think about Finrod? Additional thoughts about this key figure in the Beren and Luthien tale?'

Darnesa: 'He sounds quite ambitious.'

Andeon: 'okay, so basic concept...almost as if the story HAS to swing 'round to an offspring of feanor, as the silmarils are now involved...again. I think Finrod says it himself...'

Hollyberye: 'I find him hugely compelling—such a hero, so beautiful and talented, so kind to other races. And what a pity….'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod is the stuff of legends! He should have had his own book even.'

Falleriel: 'Well, I had read of him in the Silmarillion, but held no lingering thoughts until this discussion. The third picture posted by Elimraen in the forum thread has me thinking - that's a seriously pretty Elf playing the harp. On browsing Gateway, I realised he was the first Noldor to come across the race of Men - and his teaching and influence on them is *wow*'

Byrcha: 'tragedy is a powerful theme'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I was enchanted by his ability to mesmerize and share transcendent feelings through music and song'

Hollyberye: 'His loyalty to the oath is amazing, though not surprising in Tolkien's heros'

Andeon: 'it's not really loyalty I don't think - there are times when the language he uses to describe it is more one of...resignation'

Hollyberye: 'well but he never thinks to break, to not honor the oath'

Falleriel: 'Then of course, his valour and loyalty - to the Noldor as he crossed the Helacruxe, to his people whom he led in Nargathrond, to Beren as he fulfills his oath ...'

Hollyberye: 'that is why I used the word loyalty, though not the best choice of words I agree'

Andeon: 'but yah, I suppose there's also a sort of...i'm not sure loyalty is quite the right word...but there's a sense of duty to his bloodline that transcends the logic of what he's doing'

Falleriel: 'well, duty and courage I'd say - the strength to forge forward in the face of pain / grief'

Hollyberye: 'yes--just an inherent motivation to do what he said he would do'

Andeon: 'basically, it's like the British sense of royalty at war with commoner logic'

Hollyberye: 'yes I thought of the British too'

Hollyberye: 'King Finrod Felagund says that “clearly Thingol desires your death; but it seems this doom goes beyond his purpose; and that the Oath of Feanor is again at work.”'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please explain the Oath of Feanor. *I know some of you know*'

Byrcha: 'All the Silmarils belong to him'

Falleriel: 'that's not a discussion 'point', it's a thesis hahaha'

Hollyberye: 'heh'

Hollyberye: 'the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred—the sons of Feanor would lay all the elf kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any others to possess a Silmaril--that's my interpretation in a nutshell'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod realizes matters are further complicated by the presence of Celegorm and Curufin in his halls.'

Byrcha: 'hubris to be sure. Morgoth must have been secretly pleased.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Byrcha--'

Elimraen: 'How much does Thingol know of that when he sends Beren off for one?'

Hollyberye: 'by then he knows'

Elimraen: 'Ok'

Hollyberye: 'Because he had already gotten inflamed with Finrod over withholding informatiuon--Information that Morgoth made sure he knew'

Elimraen: 'Oh, right :)'

Hollyberye: 'Although Finrod is quite aware of the seeming hopelessness of this task, he stands by his own oath.'

Hollyberye: 'Celegorm and Curufin set fear in the hearts of the Elves at Nargothrond and are able to convince almost all that Finrod is not suited to command them.

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please comment on how Feanor’s sons are able to usurp Finrod.'

Andeon: 'sorry - again, got distracted - was (and still is) trying to track down the original oath...but Finrod more or less also points out how Curifin and Celegorm usurp his city'

Falleriel: '(another version of the Oath: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Oath_of_Feanor - from Morgoth's Ring (HoME bk 10), "Part Two. The Annals of Aman" - first I've read it in 'poetry' form)'

Andeon: 'he mentions that they've already made a lot of friends, and that their armies I think are present'

Hollyberye: 'yes he does say that'

Hollyberye: 'Finrod has to relinquish his crown for supporting Beren. Ten stand by Finrod, so with Beren, it is a company of 12 (note we see that number again).'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please comment on anything you know about Finrod’s chief supporter, Edrahil, and Finrod’s brother Orodreth, who will govern in his stead.'

Falleriel: 'Apparently Orodreth held stewardship of Minas Tirith before it was taken by Sauron, and he came to Nargothrond. that's all I remembered hehe'

Hollyberye: 'I recently came across a reference to his lengthy kingship through the second age'

Falleriel: 'isn't Orodreth also the father of Finduilas?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'and he married a Sindar I believe'

Falleriel: 'and therefore Turin's (hmm I'm fairly sure Elves don't say father in law. I wonder what they use)'

Hollyberye: 'great point!'

Hollyberye: 'The twelve set out in autumn, and slay a company of orcs..'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please comment on Finrod Felagund’s enchanting the company into the likeness of Orcs.'

Elimraen: 'The mind boggles'

Hollyberye: 'yes more magic!'

Hollyberye: 'Sauron, however, is suspicious of this band and waylays them…and “thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund, which is renowned.” They two battle through Songs of Power!'

Athelthryth: 'I was always fascinated by that. My theory is that it was illusionary magic which made others preceive them as orcs'

Byrcha: 'aye, the magic is fascinating throughout this story'

Hollyberye: 'I agree with that Athelthryth'

Hollyberye: 'I love reading these more explicit uses of magic'

Malphos: 'Its interesting to think why they got into that battle of songs'

Athelthryth: 'My theory is if they remained confident that they would be undetected, the magic would work, but when Sauron caused them to become nervous and doubtful it failed'

Hollyberye: 'I can accept that theory'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I simply love that idea of a battle of songs of power'

Malphos: 'see, if Sauron got suspicious the are no real orcs, or not his orcs or whatever, why did he not simply send a bunch of his troops to slay 'em. he is not that cautions elsewhere

Athelthryth: 'I like the version of this story in Book of Lost Tales'

Hollyberye: 'I can't recall if I pulled this from the Lay or the Silmarillon:'

Hollyberye: 'Morgoth “…chanted a song of wizardry, of piercing, opening, of treachery, revealing, uncovering, betraying.”'

Hollyberye: 'Swaying, Felgund, “sang in answer a song of staying, resisting, battling against power, of secrets kept, strength like a tower, and trust unbroken, freedom, escape…”'

Hollyberye: 'I am very engaged by this'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please share your thoughts on how this battle of song affected the two combatants, and how it really worked.'

Andeon: 'okay, so, I may only have a part of the song (i'm still using just the silmarillion)'

Hollyberye: 'Oh: The song is described most vividly in the Lay of Leithian and the key section included in the Silmarillion.'

Athelthryth: 'Yes, there is a longer version in Book of Lost Tales, told as a very lengthy poem'

Falleriel: 'btw, sorry to backtrack but...to add to the previous point on Finrod and marriage/children, he already had a beloved, Amarië of the Vanyar in Valinor. They were reunited after his 'rebirth' (mention towards the ending of the Lay.'

Hollyberye: 'I think I got the quotes from the chapter'

Andeon: 'but, it sounds like each chants a song of their particular strengths at first (iirc, song was also used as a metaphor for the creation of the world and Finrod is finally defeated when Sauron sings the chant of all the sins of the Noldor. Which I find interesting - basically, Sauron defeats Finrod by reminding him of the sins he's committed'

Athelthryth: 'Magic and singing are very closely related in Tolkien, so it's logical that Sauron and Finrod would have a magical music duel'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Is it the treachery among the Elves that Sauron deciphered in his song battle with Finrod?'

Athelthryth: 'Sauron uses psychological warefare in the song and causes Finrod to doubt'

Hollyberye: 'I pasted that in since Andeon anticipated it'

Hollyberye: 'Excellent point Athelthryth'

Andeon: 'sorry Ath, but...I'm not finding language, at least in my copy, indicating specifically that Finrod is having doubts'

Falleriel: 'I just *love* the Lay's depiction.'

Hollyberye: 'I do too Falleriel'

Athelthryth: 'Well, being told all about the crimes of your people would cause someone to feel less than confident. Or distracted, at the very least.'

Andeon: 'there's a spot that mentions that Sauron has doubts, but that's in reference to the disguise of orcs that the companions are wearing. True 'dat, Ath - i'm just not sure it's a point specifically mentioned by the text is all'

Hollyberye: 'Sauron casts them into a deep pit. He intends to kill them cruelly until the truth is “betrayed”. From time to time two eyes are kindled in the darkness and a were-wolf devoured one of them.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Why would Tolkien use were-wolves? I will confess I was surprised to read of were-wolves and vampires here.'

Byrcha: 'aye! it is a surprise!'

Andeon: 'as for the werewolves, they were mentioned earlier somewhere...'

Malphos: 'is it really a were-wolf in our sense? maybe a relict from all those changes to the stories. we hear of 'wargs' later. maybe we should read it like that?'

Andeon: 'i remember reading it recently...'

Byrcha: 'such things as werewolves are implied elsewhere I think, but explicit only in this story'

Falleriel: 'well I don't think they were our modern were-wolves, but rather, mutated creatures. There are many instances of the evil ones altering nature. The key ones being orcs from elves etc.'

Andeon: 'there's a part of the Silmarillion where Tolkien mentions all manner of dark creatures born in the early shadows of the world...'

Andeon: 'no - werewolves are specifically mentioned as wolves inhabited by fell spirits...somewhere

Athelthryth: 'I always wondered if they were really Maiar/spirits who chose wolf/vampire type forms. Not like traditional werewolves and vampires'

Byrcha: 'aye, yes, were-wolves out of normal-wolves'

Byrcha: 'I think I might have read something about the vampire messenger being a Maia'

Hollyberye: 'I did not know this!'

Athelthryth: 'I like the idea of them being mutated creates though, like Falleriel says'

Byrcha: 'I will have to look for the reference'

Andeon: '..."Therefore an army was sent against him (Beren) under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies"'

Hollyberye: 'Thanks Andeon'

Hollyberye: 'When Beren is cast in this pit, a weight of horror fills Lúthien’s heart. She seeks out her mother to learn more…Melian reveals that Beren lays in the dungeon without hope of rescue.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Lúthien realizes no one will help Beren but herself—why does she seek out Daeron’s help, he who already betrayed her once?'

Hollyberye: 'I feel that is very naive for such a smart and talented half-Maia, though she quickly learns subtlety to get her way'

Hollyberye: 'Daeron DOES betray Luthien's intent'

Hollyberye: 'Thingol is horrified and “restrains” her by imprisoning her in the mighty beech Hirilorn. The ladders are removed from her high wooden house and she is guarded.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Please comment Tolkien’s use of this mighty tree, and any comparative such uses in classic literature or elsewhere in Tolkien.'

Byrcha: '*cough*Rapunzel*cough*'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Byrcha :D...First thing I thought of'

Athelthryth: 'Luthien even grows her hair out with a magic spell (in BOLT) so she can escape from the tree'

Malphos: 'hehe yes seems directly taken from that fairy tale'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!!'

Andeon: 'yah, the rapunzel mythology is obvious - but of secondary interest, is that her brunette-ness apparently also has the ability to hide her in shadow'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the shadowy hair will come up again'

Athelthryth: 'Her hair is like a magical garment lol'

Andeon: 'will it come up in a bun?'

Andeon: 'maybe some princess leia buns?'

Athelthryth: 'Lady Godiva hair lol'

Hollyberye: 'When we resume, we will take up with Luthien's time in the tree and what follows'

Hollyberye: 'Next week we will not meet due to the Greenfields Concerts, and the week after is Easter. So Sunday April 3rd is our next session. But any additional comments on the material covered today?'

Athelthryth: 'I have a question about Luthien but perhaps it is slightly off topic'

Hollyberye: 'We do not generally run this long, but the Europeans at least are an hour closer'

Hollyberye: 'Ask away!'

Athelthryth: 'It's been a while since I read Sil or BOLT so sometimes I mix the two accounts of the Lay together. But I always wonder if Luthien could fly, at least in some versions. It wasn't very clear'

Athelthryth: 'Or maybe she could only fly while dressed as Thuringwethil because she had to grow her hair to escape from the tree'

Malphos: 'ah the bat. yes, that sounds like she can fly in this form I think.. we jump forward I think'

Athelthryth: 'because she is flying above Beren and Haun, and sometimes it seems like she is flying around Melkor's throne. Other times, just dancing'

Falleriel: 'And Andeon, I think the 2nd son of Feanor was least 'vengeful' in the Oath (you were asking earlier), he was one of the great minstrels, also wrote the Noldolantë (a lament for the Kinslaying at Alqualondë), and later 'adopted' Elrond and Elros. I find Maglor's tale one of the most tragic tbh.'

Hollyberye: 'Are there any additional comments for our material tonight?'

Andeon: 'you might be right - have to go back and reread a buncha stuff (got myself lost in teh story of ungoliant again :))'

Hollyberye: 'Oh good point, Falleriel'

Andeon: 'nope - I think i've got enough to think about for a bit'

Falleriel: 'you and your spider fixation!'

Byrcha: 'Thank you for leading us, Holly!'

Andeon: 'I really do just love them as fantasy monsters...'

Hollyberye: 'Okay Sunday April the 3rd is our next session after Andune--and the chat log will be posted soon'

____________________________________

We all said goodbye and Falleriel taught us the /booksalute and /scrollsalute! Thank you all who attended!

_____________________________________


NEXT SESSION: Sunday, 3 April 2016, 4:15 PM server time following the Andune Ensemble performance! Hope to see you at the Bird and Baby Inn and/or in /joinchannel lmbbookclub. We will pick up with Luthien's imprisonment by her father, in the mighty beech Hirilorn.

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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

Hello! Just a reminder:

NEXT SESSION of The Tale of Beren and Lúthien, Session Five: Sunday, 3 April 2016, approximately 4:15 PM server time following the Andune Ensemble performance! Hope to see you at the Bird and Baby Inn and/or in /joinchannel lmbbookclub. We will pick up with Luthien's imprisonment by her father, in the mighty beech Hirilorn.

Though if you also want to discuss The Lament of Bert, Tom and Bill, we can do that as well wink...(see the last page of the April 1st edition of the Lemon Lately).

A note on this coming discussion: I will be elaborating on Lúthien's enchantment with quotes from the Lay of Leithian, Canto VI, which is only summarized at a very high level in Chapter 19 of The Silmarillion.

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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

The fine group of today:
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Thank you Holly for organizing and preparing it each time!


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Landroval: Malvy|Mirvie|Milvie|Malphos|Mellothiel|Belweryn|Beolgo|Mulbeo|Melhildan|Mirsi ..
Laurelin: Tarino|Sappia|Melledhel|Nabli|Malvy|Mirvie
and Malvy & Mirvie on Crickhollow, Belegaer and everywhere!
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

Thank you for the excellent paintings, Malphos! It was a really wonderful discussion and I was happy to have so many engaged in it.

I will post the chat log later today.
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club:
The Tale of Beren and Lúthien
Session Five, Sunday, 3 April 2016


Attendees: Elimraen, Lhinnthel, Malphos, Hollyberye, Corulin, Byrcha, Falleriel, Mithmenelien, Bilwise, Dorholbytla, Dancyn, Wilifrith and possible shy lurkers

Hollyberye: 'Welcome to the Lonely Mountain Band Book Club! We meet today to continue discussion of the Tale of Beren and Lúthien. The primary text we are using is from “The Silmarillion,” Chapter 19, Of Beren and Lúthien, but I am also interspersing that with excerpts from the “Lay of Leithian.” I will summarize some of the text before each discussion point, so although reading the material in advance is wonderful, if you were unable to, I feel you can still follow along well and participate in the discussion. You are also welcome to raise additional discussion points, of course! I will edit the chat log and post it in our forum thread.'

Hollyberye: 'To begin: Last time we ended with Beren and Felagund imprisoned in a deep pit by Sauron, their companions slowly being devoured by a were-wolf. Lúthien has also been imprisoned by her father, Thingol, in the mighty beech Hírilorn, after he learns she plans to help Beren. Between the shafts of Hírilorn very high above ground, Thingol had a wooden house built where Lúthien was made to dwell. The ladders were taken away and the tree guarded.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: This is a very grand tree of Middle-earth, put to literary use. Please name and describe any other trees that you feel Tolkien has used as a literary device in his great works.'

Byrcha: 'Well, there's the Party Tree?'

Hollyberye: 'yes! Okay I will confess that I just wrote a long song about the trees of Middle-earth so I am really up on this topic :D

Falleriel: 'The Two Trees of Valinor!'

Bilwise: 'Mallorn trees in Lothlorien''

Elimraen: 'Yes, the description of the trees of Lorien always stays with me :)'

Hollyberye: 'The Two Trees started it all'

Falleriel: 'Are you going to sing it for us? *pleads*'

Hollyberye: 'Well when Geoff puts it in the Andune set list'

Mithmenelien: 'oh, that sounds like a lovely theme for a song! :D'

Hollyberye: 'so the mallorns, yes'

Hollyberye: 'Old Man Willow!!!'

Byrcha: 'oh yes!'

Hollyberye: 'he was very important to Tolkien'

Lhinnthel: 'Ooh, cannot wait to hear that one, Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'I learned that when he was young, Tolkien had a favorite gorgeous tree and one day it had been chopped down, for no reason at all'

Lhinnthel: 'Ents.. there are a lot of Ents!'

Byrcha: 'The Ents almost qualify for tree-status'

Hollyberye: 'He was profoundly sad and it affected him so much he used it as the basis of what happened to the Party Tree and how Sam reacted'

Hollyberye: 'exactly. Yes, I gave the Ents two lines in the song !'

Elimraen: 'The White Tree of Gondor!'

Malphos: 'sounds like the party tree in the Shire'

Hollyberye: 'Did you know--They were sent by the Elves to protect the trees from Dwarves?'

Hollyberye: 'anyhow those are the most important trees but this beech was very ancient and important'

Byrcha: 'I may have known that, and then forgotten it, now I know it again'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'I couldn't find a lore basis for the tree in the secret glade, but was going to include it but ran out of lines'

Byrcha: 'which Secret Glade? Dunland?'

Hollyberye: 'yes!'

Lhinnthel: 'You'll have to write a whole 'nother song dedicated to it then!'

Byrcha: 'aye, a wonderful place'

Hollyberye: 'OH--MOST IMPORTANT...I devote the most verse to The White Tree of Gondor! (Yes, Elimraen!)'

Mithmenelien: 'sorry, who was send to protect the trees from the dwarves?'

Hollyberye: 'so you can see how critical trees were to the Tolkien Legendarium'

Bilwise: 'Isn't there a secret glade in Bree too?

Hollyberye: 'The Ents'

Mithmenelien: 'oh, I didn't know that!'

Malphos: 'Not specifically from the dwarves, Mith, but from all creatures chopping down trees. The Ents, specifically requested by the Varda of all living'

Hollyberye: 'The Elves sent the Ents to protect the trees from Dwarves chopping them wantonly--is what I discovered. Though I cannot swear to that'

Malphos: '.. Valar'

Hollyberye: 'There Malphos has it more accurately,,,that is one reason why I brought this point up'

Byrcha: '(There's the 'secret well' where the other River Daughter lives, near Staddle)'

Hollyberye: 'among us so much knowledge we help each other'

Hollyberye: 'Oh and Byrcha, an earth-bound spirit was trapped in Old Man Willow, which reminded me of those river spirits!'

Malphos: 'Yavanna is her name, had to look it up. (memory plays sieve)'

Hollyberye: 'Jack Lewisdown says, ''I hope this book is as good as he claims.'''

Hollyberye: 'Yes Yavanna sang to make the two trees, correct?'

Malphos: 'Yes, and also to revive them. She created everything living, except the intelligent races'

Byrcha: 'I think so yes'

Hollyberye: 'well moving on unless anyone has anything more to say about the trees of Middle-earth?'

Hollyberye: 'Thank you'

Lhinnthel: 'That is how I remember it!'

Dorholbytla (just joining): 'Are we talking about trees in general in Tolkien?'

Hollyberye: '((yes after bringing up the tree in which she was imprisoned, I said : Please name and describe any other trees that you feel Tolkien has used as a literary device in his great works.)))'

Byrcha: 'We're actually covering the story of Beren and Luthien'

Malphos: '(No, Dorhol, about the story of Luthien and Beren. Now at the point where Luthien got home arrest (so to say) by her father Thingol in a big tree. Hence the trees.)'

Dorholbytla: 'Oh, I always found it fascinating that Merry (?) mentioned a family member saw a walking tree in the shire'

Dorholbytla: 'A fan wrote to Tolkien about this, and he adamantly denied that there were any entwives in the Shire. I wonder if he was more hopeful in the book than later on.'

Dorholbytla: 'And when the hobbits described the Shire, Treebeard said it sounded like somewhere the entwives would like, and to look out for them.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, I recall that mention too Dorholbytla'

Dorholbytla: 'Tolkien seems to draw parallels between the fading of the trees and fading of the elves'

Hollyberye: (Note--great point Dorholbytla, I missed it at the time, about the fading)

Elimraen: 'The White Tree in the game looks very very similar to Tolkien's old favourite tree :)'

Hollyberye: 'Oh thanks Elimraen!!'

Hollyberye: 'The Lay of Leithian (Canto VI) covers Lúthien’s escape very well, and I will use part of that to cover this section. “In angry love and half in fear Thingol took counsel his most dear to guard and keep.” The Lay says she would wand and fade if robbed of air and that she must ever “look upon the sky and see the sun and moon go by.” So instead Thingol thinks of the “beechen queen” Hírilorn. Thingol willed that a little dwelling be built up as high as the longest ladders reached, an airy house, with three corners, veiled in leaves, and windows faint to see. Here Lúthien was bidden to dwell until “she was wiser and the spell of madness left her.”'

Hollyberye: '((And I don't think Bilwise's snack cart was parked below)'

Byrcha: '(YAY, SNACKS!)'

Bilwise: '((Not without a snack slingshot to get the food up there))'

Bilwise: '((MUFFIN INBOUND!! Opps ... sorry about the window ...))'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What other options might have been open to Thingol? What do you think of the way he dealt with Lúthien? How do you think it influenced Lúthien’s relationship with Thingol, if at all?'

Byrcha: 'Yes, this is Tolkien's take on 'Rapunzel' wink'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Byrcha, I very naturally thought of Rapunzel first, but he loved her. I have some empathy for Thingol, but in general his actions upset me'

Malphos: 'Well, generally things like imprisonment somewhere closed does not feel very elvish, but if I think of Nargothrond, it seems it would not be that inconvenient to stay without Sky, or?'

Falleriel: 'Well, bearing in mind the customs of Tolkien's time, I'd say it's fairly typical paternal behaviour.'

Falleriel: 'You know, the Elf version of convents'

Bilwise: 'Me too. I guess it's one thing to ground your daughter for hanging out with the wrong sort of guy but another to stick her in a tree as punishment. Sounded a bit extreme to me.'

Byrcha: 'A bit elaborate, but definitely a 'go to your room, young lady' kind of paternal move'

Mithmenelien: 'I think the way he dealt with her creates a very beautiful fairytale kind of scene, and I love the description of the trees and the house under other circumstances it would be lovely to live there,'

Hollyberye: 'well although Thingol's realm had the giant underground caverns, Luthien preferred to be under the sun and stars'

Malphos: 'On the other hand, how would you have grounded a daughter like Luthien? 'You stay at home' would not have a big effect i guess ;)'

Bilwise: 'Hehe, true.'

Hollyberye: 'And perhaps he was especially nervous of her Maia-inherited powers?'

Bilwise: 'Stay here in the woods, young lady, isn't much of a punishment for an elf, I guess.'

Dancyn: 'There are times when one must sit and reflect upon their deeds. Hopefully learning and becoming wiser'

Hollyberye: 'We are told in the Lay of Leithian that any guard who left a ladder or put one there at night would meet their death. Lúthien, from her airy prison, could see and hear Daeron piping from the ground in sorrow, that he was grieving. And the Lay goes on to say that she forgave him for betraying her.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What do you think of Daeron both grieving and being forgiven? What must have been Tolkien’s outlook on Lúthien that he would devise her as so forgiving? The Lay says only Daeron was allowed to set foot in her little house.'

Byrcha: 'Pfft, Daeron.'

Mithmenelien: 'I thought it was at least kind of him to take into consideration that her spirit would need the wind and the sky to survive'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I agree with you Mith'

Hollyberye: 'and with Byrcha--how can she be so forgiving of Daeron? It says much of her nature

Falleriel: 'They were after all best friends from childhood, a bond like that would forgive much.'

Byrcha: 'From the regular text, Daeron was neither grieving nor forgiven IIRC'

Malphos: 'A bit 'too good to be real', Holly. I think the picture Tolkien draws here of Luthien is .. kind of idealistic?'

Hollyberye: 'very!!!'

Byrcha: 'well, maybe implicitly forgiven, since she did go back to Daeron for help after he betrayed her the FIRST time'

Dancyn: 'How much time did she have in the tree??...To reflect & think?'

Malphos: 'Oh, did not remember that Falleriel. That indeed gives a bond.'

Hollyberye: 'I have been accused of being too forgiving, but to have him stop me from being with my true love twice already--well'

Elimraen: 'Forgiveness takes lots of strength so I like that a lot. (I hadn't read it either because I've only read the Silmarillion chapter)'

Bilwise: 'I was wondering that too, Dancyn.'

Falleriel: 'And I do bear in mind that Daeron did it not out of pride or spite, but in hopes of protecting Luthien from the very real danger of being with Beren.'

Hollyberye: 'Again, I hope you all do not mind me drawing from the Lay--for this part, the detail is much more present'

Falleriel: 'Or at least that's my interpretation.'

Hollyberye: 'yes that is a wise interpretation'

Elimraen: 'It's great to have more detail Holly :)'

Hollyberye: 'But Luthien saw nothing wrong with Beren'

Falleriel: 'Should she have understood Daeron's motives, then so she may also forgive him his actions.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought it interesting that only he could come up to her house to bide time. Her mother and father did not, apparently'

Malphos: 'It is nice that you do that, Holly! But just please do not expect all to know that too ;)'

Hollyberye: 'I don't, I am adding it because parts of the chapter are just too high level, and I try to say when I add material from the Lay'

Byrcha: 'Interesting. I can see why Thingol might not visit up there'

Mithmenelien: 'in the version in the lost tales Daeron was Luthien's brother and not such a bad person, so maybe her kind of love for him like a brother lived on to this version from her side at least, and made it easier for her to forgive him, they seemed to have been rather close'

Hollyberye: 'Oh good point--though I think early on it said he loved her--but yes that could be interpreted many ways'

Byrcha: 'Aye, from the Silmarilion it sounds like she saw Daeron more as a brother, but he wanted more'

Hollyberye: 'The Canto goes on to say that one night as the light changed a dream of enchantment came to her and she could here Beren call to her. Her heart answered, “Let me be gone to seek him no others think upon him.” She bowed her head and longed for freedom and escape. The Lay goes on to say that she is Melian’s daughter and is possessed of deep lore and that Elven-maids knew more enchantments then. She pondered through the night and at last a smile flickered on her face.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Why do you think Elven-maids of a later age would know less enchantments? Why do you think Tolkien makes reference much less to magic in other parts of his legendarium, when he has clearly used it to such great effect in this Tale? He clearly made a choice at some point to make “magic” very subtle and not often referenced later on.'

Malphos: 'we have here a direct heritage from the times before time, before Ea. That is reason enough for me :)'

Byrcha: 'I've wondered that also. That was why I loved this particular story so much-- it actually has both good and evil magic'

Bilwise: 'I think part of it was Tolkien's "Fall" idea: the world was once better and we've grown decrepit and wanting so, less magic and more chaos, etc.'

Dancyn: 'Well said Bilwise'

Byrcha: 'I could also write it off as it being from Luthien's Maiar heritage, rather than her Elven heritage'

Mithmenelien: 'The Golden olden days things were always better then ;)'

Bilwise: '*flex* *muffins for Dancyn*'

Byrcha: 'Heh, except the Olde Days also had Melkor and that big spider :P'

Hollyberye: 'great points! I just know I love this more overt use of magic, not that I don't love the subtle use later'

Dancyn: '*happily munches muffins. ?big spider?'

Bilwise: 'One thing I recall when you mentioned magic was the Lady of the Wood's reaction to Sam when he asked about it. To you it may appear to be magic but to us it's just art (or craft or something like that)'

Falleriel: 'the dilution of magic is a common theme. kind of reminds me of magic in Arthurian times being lost as Camelot waned.'

Hollyberye: 'ahh excellent point'

Byrcha: 'ah!'

Hollyberye: 'And the Lady learned at the feet of Melian, as did Luthien'

Mithmenelien: 'for the previous point, The elves might have had more magic in them from the beginning, remembering more things from the time with the valar and with time that knowledge slowly slipped away.'

Hollyberye: 'Ohh also a great Point Fallerie. 'That too is a great explanation, Mith'

Hollyberye: 'The First Age passing--also brought the loss of some crafting'

Dancyn: 'Loss of crafting w/ ""Elven Arts"" maybe?'

Hollyberye: 'yes that is what I meant :)'

Hollyberye: 'Lúthien calls to one of her guards and requests several mysterious things: clearest cold water drawn from the river in a bowl of silver white, brought to her silently; wine in a jar of gold with flowered twined, brought to her at high noon with singing; and a spinning-wheel begged from her mother Melian, for her daughter is weary in her bower. Then Lúthien calls to Daeron to climb up and talk. She praises his ability to craft with wood and asks him to make her a loom for the corner of her room. In the Lay Lúthien says she will “spin and weave a pattern of colours, of morn and ever, of sun and moon and changing light amid the beech-leaves waving bright.”'

Hollyberye: 'Daeron obliges and asks what she will weave? “A marvelous thread,” she replies, “and wind therein a strong enchantment and a spell I will weave within a web that hell nor all powers of Dread shall break." We are told Daeron wondered but does NOT speak to Thingol, though he fears the dark purpose of her art.'

Byrcha: 'interesting'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Comment on this enchantment Lúthien plans to work, its basis in literature…and, a separate issue, how could she trust him (Daeron) yet again?'

Dancyn: 'powerful'

Hollyberye: 'Also--she uses the word hell, I found that interesting'

Byrcha: 'Perhaps she succeeded in gaining sympathy from him this time, as in why he didn't go to Thingol'

Bilwise: 'Spinning and weaving often figure prominently in fairy tales. As spoken tales, they were often told by women to each other and to their children to keep them quiet. As such they frequently referred to items at hand as they worked: EG: spinning wheels'

Byrcha: 'The loom imagery reminds me of ... Rumpelstiltskin?'

Falleriel: 'well my earlier thoughts on the bond between Luthien and Daeron remain. I like the phrase 'powers of Dread''

Mithmenelien: 'spinning and weaving has always been powerful tools in old myths'

Bilwise: 'Aye, Rumpelstilskin, Cinderella, the knitting of the tale of the 7 goat kids ...'

Byrcha: 'Interesting that he edited Daeron out of this part of the story btwn the Lay and the Silmarilion'

Elimraen: 'Sleeping Beauty too'

Bilwise: '*nods nods*'

Hollyberye: 'yes I really love this and how Tolkien drew on fairy tales and mythology'

Byrcha: 'I found that somehow empowering for Luthien -- she is a powerful protagonist now'

Hollyberye: 'yes! Yes especially to Byrcha's point that she is now a powerful protagonist'

Falleriel: 'agreed! is anyone else reminded of Wheel of Time? Where Weaves, also known as webs, are combination of flows of the Power.'

Elimraen: 'Yes! The Wheel of Time, and the Warders' cloaks!'

Byrcha: 'Ah, it has been a looong time since I read any of The Wheel of Time, but something rang a bell here if not for other fairy tales/myths'

Hollyberye: 'The Lay of Leithian tells us that Lúthien, alone, sings a magic song unknown to men, mingles the water and the wine three times nine; sings a song of growth and day, then as the colors change, of night and darkness without end, of height uplifted to the stars, and flight and freedom.'

Mithmenelien: 'I've read resentfully that the viking women weaved in magic while they weaved to help in the battles of the vikings, and I thought of Luthien then ;)'

Hollyberye: 'Oh excellent point to bring up'

Falleriel: 'Also, fantasy (especially older ones) often differentiates between Men's magic (which tends to be more militaristic), and Women's magic (which tends to be more domestic)'

Hollyberye: 'Lúthien also sings of “things tallest and longest on earth,” which include the locks of the Longbeard dwarves; the tail of Draugluin the werewolf pale; the body of Glaurung the great snake; the vast upsoaring peaks that quake above the fires of Angband’s gloom,” and many other tall or long things, including the endless hair of Uinen, the Lady of the Sea.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Are you surprised that such a complex spell came from the pen of Tolkien? Please also discuss the power of song in this story.'

Byrcha: 'Not surprised much, after rereading the part of the Lay in the Silmarilion re the battle between Sauron and Felagund(sp?)'

Byrcha: 'he merged poetry with magic, which is quite artful here'

Falleriel: 'I *love* how Tolkien's world has so much detail that the tales interweave'

Bilwise: 'As a professor of Anglo Saxon, Tolkien would have been aware of the Norse myths. A lot of the references have parallels in them. The great sea serpent (Thor battled a great sea serpent that bound the world's oceans), Hell (in Norse, not a hot place but a place for the dead without honor), etc.'

Hollyberye: 'I am completely enamoured with the use of song as a magic tool'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Bilwise, excellent item to bring up'

Elimraen: 'Song is *so* powerful throughout this story, I was really struck by that.'

Dancyn: 'Song & music are still very powerful.'

Elimraen: 'It made me appreciate the minstrel class even more :)'

Hollyberye: 'That resonates with me as song is so important to me--it fills my life and songs have such meaning, so I really fancy it being a powerful magic tool'

Bilwise: 'In Norse culture, the skald (bard) was also considered a powerful figure. Makes sense Tolkien kept those parts and mirrored them in his own legends.'

Hollyberye: 'yes!!! I do agree with all of you on this. I wish to goodness he had made this Tale a full-fledged novel'

Dancyn: 'Well said, everyone!'

Hollyberye: 'Next Lúthien washes her hair (the word lave is used) and sings a theme of sleep and slumbering, and the Lay describes the incredible character of her hair, such as “each thread more slender and fine than the threads of twilight.” Now her hair grows longer and longer. She sleeps. Though drugged with sleep, she cuts her hair close to her head, the “enchanted tresses, thread by thread.” Now her hair grows again, slower and darker. Lúthien begins the task of spinning and weaving with Elvish skill, and cries to the men she wants nothing when they ask.'

Mithmenelien: 'I really like the power of the songs here. When I read about the Vikings I also read about galdr, which is magic done by chanting and singing in a high pitched voice. I think that magic might have been more associated with song in the old days, many shamans from different cultures also chanted and sang songs of power.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh thank you very much, Mithmenelien! well said'

Hollyberye: 'Daeron is in fear as he is ignored for three days. We are told in the Lay that she weaves a web like misty air of moonless night from her hair, and makes a robe of fluttering-dark like shade beneath great trees—an enchanted dress drenched with drowsiness.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: We are told the robe is more imbued with magic than Melian’s rainment when she met Thingol. Can you speculate on Melian’stutoring of her daughter in the past, and that of Galadriel? The story I feel leads the reader to believe that Lúthien simply wanders wild in Doriath, but clearly she spent time studying with her mother. Does anyone have knowledge of how the education was imparted?'

Byrcha: 'I don't recall direct references to Melian teaching Luthien anything specific, but certainly it would be implied'

Malphos: 'No, I cannot remember there were any details on the studies and the mentoring.'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't know, but them being elves it might be by talking and story telling or even by singing songs to her daughter with all her knowledge in it'

Hollyberye: 'I like to imagine being at Melian’s First Age Magical School for Talented Elven Ladies :D'

Hollyberye: 'Because we are told elsewhere that Galadriel studied with her'

Falleriel: 'Interesting point - do you think Melian taught orally or via the written word?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I think she conveyed things to Luthien by just being together and talking/singing. 'I think orally!'

Mithmenelien: 'me to!'

Byrcha: 'My guess would be orally only'

Hollyberye: 'Because also Luthien spent so much time outside wandering (reminds me of Nellas too, though not so unattached to home)'

Mithmenelien: 'they might have walked in the forest while dicussing things!'

Hollyberye: 'I just wish Tolkien had given us more detail'

Malphos: 'I cannot imagine Luthien digging into old, dusty written words'

Byrcha: 'I too wish this story had been expanded (much like Turin)'

Hollyberye: 'I especially wish there were not such a paucity of details on how the Elves reared their young'

Falleriel: 'I'm visualising that they (Luthien and Galadriel) learnt not so much by being directly taught but through observation of what Melian did (kind of like an apprenticeship)'

Malphos: 'Especially as Melian is mentoring - the live source of any knowledge directly at hand. Why bother with thin, cold written words?'

Hollyberye: 'and perhaps assisting? But yes I agree with that'

Hollyberye: 'Lúthien furls herself in the robe and with the unused threads makes a slender rope. The robe is dark blue with crystal star jewels and it is laden with a spell of sleep. As dark falls, she casts her hair down and the strand causes her guards to fall asleep. She is chanting, as well, and her voice casts a binding spell. “Clad as in a cloud…she swung as light as a squirrel” down her roped hair”…vanishes out of Doriath!'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Any (other) comments on our brave Lúthien and her magical escape? I, for one, wondered if she wore shoes and brought provisions…'

Byrcha: 'heh, good point! but being so much in the forest she likely could find foods'

Falleriel: 'Well, foraging in the forest seems her style'

Bilwise: 'Aye'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't think she did, just the things the was given in the tree, otherwise she probable live off the land as she ran'

Byrcha: 'Despite the elaborateness of the spell and escape, she doesn't seem to have planned much beyond that'

Bilwise: 'And it's better than '...and she discovered she was 10 feet short on the rope length and crashed to earth like a sack of potatoes.' Elves are good planners.'

Falleriel: 'Probably spent 99.9% of her time dreaming of Beren rather than making any preparations anyways :P'

Byrcha: 'well, the 0.1% was a good plan :P'

Bilwise: 'Aye'

Malphos: 'Lol Falleriel! Isn't that the better part of the planning?'

Hollyberye: 'hehe'

Mithmenelien: 'oh, and I absolutely loved that very beautiful description of Luthiens shadowy hair and the garment she made from it, it made me want to one day be able to make a painting of her with this ethereal mist like hair and cloths ;D'

Lhinnthel: 'I love how Tolkien's elves are often described as "dancing" away or running away/towards danger on "dancing feet." heh'

Hollyberye: 'I feel strongly that the Lay of Leithian does justice to this segment of the Tale far better than Chapter 19 of the Silmarillion!'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, that sounds so beautiful Lhinn!'

Elimraen: 'I'm getting that impression too!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--in the reminder post of the forum, I first used a fan art picture that I loved, except her facial expression was ALLLL wrong--she looked so scared--and clearly was not, so I found another--that Fall likes too :)'

Malphos: 'But only elves have time to look at every detail like that! Please forgive us short-living humans.

Hollyberye: 'Advancing our story:'

Hollyberye: 'Now we find Curufin and Celegorm, the two sons of Fëanor, that had joined in the oath to recover their father’s Silmarils, out hunting on the Guarded Plain with the chief wolf-hound, Huan.'

Hollyberye: 'Recall that Curufin and Celegorm had frightened all but 12 of those at Nargothrond from following Beren and Felagund Finrod.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What do you know about Huan, the wolfhound? (without going into what Huan does next in this tale)'

Hollyberye: 'Sullo's Balrog must have descended from him I think....'

Malphos: 'Was he mentioned in detail before? I only recall him from his role here'

Byrcha: 'Huan is from the Undying Lands'

Hollyberye: 'yes!!'

Byrcha: 'I think this is the first mention'

Hollyberye: 'he came from the Blessed Realm. Orome gave him to Celegorm in Valinor'

Mithmenelien: 'he is said to only be able to be killed by the greatest of wolves'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--he had a decree, like a fate, to meet death but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf to walk the world'

Elimraen: 'And he was allowed to speak with words three times'

Malphos: 'which takes a nice turn in this story ;)'

Hollyberye: 'Indeed!'

Hollyberye: 'It is Huan that finds Lúthien flying like a shadow “surprised by daylight under the trees.” Huan’s attributes include being able to see or smell anything, not being stopped by any enchantment, and never needing to sleep!'

Malphos: 'Which is very strange. We do know of Mormegil to have spoken, now a wolf-hound.'

Hollyberye: 'it is the strangeness interlayed with the humanity that makes some of this so compelling, I feel'

Malphos: 'Are there any other creatures or things that speak, besides the well-known species?'

Byrcha: 'Clearly not just any wolf-hound'

Hollyberye: 'I was struck by his name, which seems not Middle-earthy'

Hollyberye: 'Huan brings Lúthien to Celegorm. He is immediately enamoured of her as she reveals herself when she realized they are princes of Noldor and foes of Morgoth. Celegorm withholds that he is fully aware of Beren’s quest.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: How does Huan bring Lúthien to Celegorm? Is she a prisoner or she comes by choice? What do you think of Celegorm’s deceit to Lúthien?'

Byrcha: 'Celegorm: Wicked, tricksy, false!'

Byrcha: 'I read it as Huan somehow bringing her by force (he didn't speak to her)'

Malphos: 'I do not think that Huan uses any force here. Mere indicating that it would be good to follow him, and Luthien will understand that.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay, thanks Malphos--I did not know what to think. I simply could not tell'

Malphos: 'They will both understand that they are the 'good' side I think'

Byrcha: 'Not much to go on there'

Mithmenelien: 'Huorn seems to be of a a very special kind of breed not just an ordinary dog and the only one of his kind to step outside of the lands that he came from,'

Hollyberye: '((Oh and when I saw Curufin's name I thought of Corulin's name--but Corulin is MUCH the nicer)'
Mithmenelien: '((I thought of Corulin too when I read Curufins name! xD))'
Hollyberye: '((so Corulin, how did you arrive at your name :) )'
Corulin: '((I used a dictionary! :) ))'
Hollyberye: '((well you must be a descendent of this line!))'
Corulin: '((wily/cunning + song :) And I was choosing between Corulin and Curulin, but since people shorten names I decided that I'd rather have people call me Cor instead of Cur... :P))'
Hollyberye: '((good point you Cur err COR!_))'
Corulin: '((Naughty Holly! XD))'

Hollyberye: 'to me Huan's role in all this points to Beren and Luthien being really fated to be together, btw, as if he were sent to play this part...'

Mithmenelien: 'yes that's a very good point Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'The brothers return to Narhothrond…and reveal their betrayment of Lúthien by taking away her cloak and “holding her fast, and denying her speech with any but them.” The brothers believe that Beren and Felagund are likely prisoners beyond hope of aid, and their plain is to let the King perish, keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand in marriage to Celegorm. They send messengers to Thingol urging this suit.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: What are Celegorm and Curufin’s motivations for this dastardly behavior? How is it that Orodreth has no power to withstand them and they so easily sway the people of Nargothrond?'

Byrcha: 'Just looked it up: Huan means 'great hound'. I wonder if it would be pronounced 'HOO-an''

Hollyberye: 'Oh thanks Byrcha!'

Elimraen: 'I think it would be Hoo-ahn, but it just sounds Spanish to me :p'

Hollyberye: 'I know that Orodreth figured for a long time in the 2nd Age so I have trouble seeing him as weak here'

Malphos: 'that clearly indicates that Feanor's sons are so deeply in their fate, that they are beyond reach of the good beginnings. Independent of Morgoth, but halfway there somehow. At least it looks like that for me. Like what became of the dark Numenorers'

Byrcha: 'Celegorm and Curufin seem to have usurped power in Nargothrond, a bit like Grima Wormtongue in Rohan'

Hollyberye: 'yes they clearly have. And maybe Orodreth is not in his full strength as a leader as he doesn't know Finrod's fate yet--so maybe he was more hesitant than he would be later--I just have to think of him as a decent leader given how long he lasted'

Byrcha: 'He was also kind of a steward for his brother, rather than ruling outright'

Hollyberye: 'right, for the moment'

Hollyberye: 'my thoughts on my discussion point are they want to advance their power and not seek the Silmarils until all Elf-kingdoms are in their control. Well I think I read that somewhere wink'

Mithmenelien: 'they seem to be very good a persuading people, they have silver tongues take can sway peoples minds'

Falleriel: 'And perhaps folks in those times were not suspicious from the start. E.g. Orodreth gave them the benefit of trust, based on 'kinship' and lineage'

Hollyberye: 'ah both excellent points'

Hollyberye: 'However, Huan is a hound of “true heart” – could this be due to being born in the Blessed realm??? – and is also in love with Lúthien at first sight. He grieves at her captivity, comes often to her chamber, and lays before her door. Huan feels that “evil has come to Nargothrond”. Lúthien speaks to Huan often and tells him of Beren, and the fact that Beren was a friend to all creatures not serving Morgoth (remember that from his exile?). Tolkien tells us that Huan understood all but cannot speak.'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Actually, Huan is permitted to speak three times before his death. Does anyone know the derivation of this gift?'

Byrcha: 'see, Huan sees his error and makes amends better than Daeron (*shakesfist at Daeron*)'

Hollyberye: 'sorry that sounds a bit repetitive from before'

Hollyberye: 'Yes! I love Bycrha's sense of injustice to these betrayors in our stories'

Byrcha: 'sorry, was jumping ahead in my indignant rage :P'

Bilwise: 'They'd get a frying pan to the kneecaps for sure!'

Bilwise: 'But, you know, more poetical.'

Hollyberye: 'heheh'

Byrcha: ':)'

Hollyberye: 'I guess the derivation is part of his mission to Middle-earth, but don't know how they arrived at it'

Hollyberye: 'Huan devises a plan to aid Lúthien. He brings her her own magical cloak and speaks to her, to counsel her. He tells her of the secret ways out of Nargothrond and they flee north together!'

Falleriel: 'I am just thinking - Narnia :)'

Hollyberye: 'Discussion Point: Huan humbles his pride and lets Lúthien ride on him like a steed. Please give other examples in Tolkien and elsewhere where this is an issue.'

Hollyberye: 'hehe yes Falleriel'

Hollyberye: 'I thought of the Centaurs in the Forbidden Forest in the Harry Potter books'

Elimraen: 'Shadowfax!'

Falleriel: 'Yes Elimraen!'

Byrcha: 'Tolkien mentions the Orc warg-riders'

Hollyberye: 'But Tolkien has various creatures be selective'

Corulin: 'The eagles?'

Bilwise: 'The eagles!'

Hollyberye: 'YES and YES'

Malphos: 'the orc riders on the wargs at the other side'

Bilwise: 'JINX!'

Bilwise: 'You owe me pies!'

Hollyberye: 'exactly what I was thinking'

Bilwise: 'Ooo! Good point, Malphos!'

Mithmenelien: 'the hobbits `riding` on the ents!'

Elimraen: 'Hehe, yes Mith :D'

Hollyberye: '--do you want me to break here--it is 5:30 server time'

Lhinnthel: 'The Ents let Merry and Pippen ride on Tree beard! Though he is an Ent.. and not an animal'

Byrcha: 'Might be a good stopping point story-wise?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I thought the Ents were less bothered'

Malphos: 'What are the eagles? They are gifted with speech here too'

Hollyberye: 'Yes because next we go back to Sauron's evil pits'

Bilwise: 'And they are hobbits and should be able to demand piggy back rides from anyone taller than them. *nods sagely*'

Hollyberye: 'and next week we will have a great battle of song again'

Malphos: '*sigh* How I know that, Bil!'

Bilwise: ':p'

Hollyberye: 'heh'

Malphos: 'Great Holly!'

Bilwise: 'Cool by me Holly! Will give me time to read up on ch 19.'

Mithmenelien: 'the hobbits riding on the bigger people in the fellowship when they are trapped by the snow in the mountains! ;D'

Malphos: 'Oh good one Mith!'

Hollyberye: 'Okay I know so many of you are in European and farther distant countries'

Bilwise: 'Yelling 'heyah! mush mush!' the whole time.'

Hollyberye: 'I can't thank you enough for staying up! Also the Americans, too :)'

Malphos: '*grins*'

Byrcha: 'Luthien riding on Huan is unique: my thought each time is 'wow, Huan must be a Very Big Dog''

Hollyberye: 'Yes ::jumps up an down:: why cannot this be a three volume novel like LOTR????' This is such a magnificent story'

Byrcha: 'Well, I would take one volume, but still'

Malphos: 'Leaves more room for your own creativity in thoughts, dear Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'hehe...well I will release you from captivity now!'

Byrcha: 'yay! recess!!!!'

Hollyberye: 'But I hope you can come back next Sunday for more'

Bilwise: 'Yes!'

Elimraen: 'Thanks Holly and everyone for the insights!'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, he must be Byrcha, makes me think even more that he is like a very special breed from other dogs, very diffrent and much bigger :)'

Corulin: 'Yay for Holly! :D'

Malphos: 'On our own free will, no magic tricks or songs needed!'

Hollyberye: 'I cannot stress enough how much more meaningful this is to discuss this with such a thoughtful, intelligent and well-versed group!'

Byrcha: 'Thank you, Holly! Thank you, everyone!'

Bilwise: 'Nice discussion! Looking forward to next week!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, thank you all so much!'

Malphos: 'Thank you!'

Hollyberye: 'I will edit the chat log and post it tonight ot tommorrow'

Mithmenelien: 'Thank you all this was a wonderful discussion of song and trees and magical things! :D'

Falleriel: 'Great discussion tonight *cheers*'

Hollyberye: 'yes that was wonderful'

Lhinnthel: 'I enjoyed following along very much! Thank you Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'I just want to stay with my promise not to run too late'

Malphos: 'late is relative :)'

Hollyberye: 'Okay more drama next week!'

Falleriel: 'Can't wait! Thanks everyone!'

Mithmenelien: 'Yay! :D'

Hollyberye: 'thanks everyone!'

Malphos: 'Thank you, see you next time then!'

Elimraen: 'Night night all :)'

Lhinnthel: 'Rest well!'

Corulin: 'Bye bye! :)'

Byrcha: 'Bye-bye!'

Mithmenelien: 'Good night everyone!'

Dorholbytla: 'Bye all!'

Hollyberye: 'bye bye until next week'

Next Session: Sunday, 10 April 2016, following Andune Ensemble, @4:15 PM server time
Hollyberye
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re: LMB Book Club: Tale of Beren and Lúthien

A reminder:

The LMB Book Club meets again this coming Sunday after Andune Ensemble, approximately 4:15 PM server time, 10 April 16, at the Bird and Baby Inn in Michel Delving and in /lmbbookclub. We continue the discussion of the Tale of Beren and Lúthien.

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Lúthien, the Elf-maiden of Doriath, and Huan, the wolf-hound from the Blessed Realm, riding to the rescue of Beren on the Isle of Wizards!
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