LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

[GDPR#3463094]

GDPR#3463094

[Hollyberye]

Cheerp wrote:

Is 'Children of Hurin' different from what is in the 'Nachrichten aus Mittelerde'/'Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middleearth'? In the preface of that book Christopher Tolkien writes the complete story Narn i Hin Hurin is part of it. *a bit confused*

My understanding is that 2/3rds of the book we selected for discussion appears elsewhere within Tolkien's body of work. Incomplete versions of the book under discussion occur earlier in the book you cited, The Silmarillion and elsewhere. So, if you have read the Unfinished Tales, you will be familiar with the full tale we are discussing.

[Molly Bayberry]

You can look at Appendix 2, "The Composition of the Text," in this book, to find out the differences. The Silmarillion has the briefest account, Unfinished Tales a longer one, and Narn i Chîn Húrin the longest.

There are differences (from Unfinished Tales) in passages about the youth of Húrin and Huor in Gondolin, and the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The biggest differences are in "Túrin in Doriath" and forward from there through the outlaws episode (where Christoper restored text that he had edited/omitted for Unfinished Tales: "I have come to think that when I composed the text in Unfinished Tales I allowed myself more editorial freedom than was necessary." (p. 285), .) Apparently there are several manuscripts surviving of these events, and it's a bit of a muddle, which Christopher discusses pp. 286-289.

He's omitted in this story the bits in Unfinished Tales about the history of the Dragon-helm and the origin of Saeros. Lastly, he's emended the original words in two places: the first an impossible geographical detail (stars in the east could not be behind the men, if they were heading east), and the other a change in the stalking of Glaurung, pp. 290-292.

This was so much fun! I look forward to attending more, as my schedule allows. Thank you very much, Holly!

[Hollyberye]

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session 1...Preface, Introduction, Chapters 1, 2,3

Attendees gathered in the Bird and Baby Inn and in /lmbbookclub: Hollyberye, Elimraen, Mornawen, Mithmenelien, Malphos, Lhinnthel, Byrcha, Lilikate, Rozalinde, Morfindiel


Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate.'

Hollyberye: 'We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to begin discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien.'

Hollyberye: 'We picked this venue because members of Tolkien's Inkling Club regularly gather here, and they would appreciate hearing from their old friend.'

Hollyberye: 'All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions.'

Hollyberye: 'We will not be capturing text in other channels or /say and possibly not emotes (unless irresistibly amusing or relevant to the meeting). We may have participants in the channel who are not in the Bird and Baby Inn.'

Hollyberye: 'Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub. We will edit out comments like ‘Thanks, but I have to leave now’ or 'have some pie, you look famished with all this gloomy discusson!''

Hollyberye: 'As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points.'

Hollyberye: 'However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly.'

Hollyberye: 'In our first session we will cover the Preface, Introduction, and the first three chapters, or until time runs out.'

Hollyberye: 'In order to reach the first three chapters, some of the material we were going to present and discuss from the Preface and Introduction will not be included here today, but perhaps we will post it on our forum and you can reply there.'

Hollyberye: 'A bit of background…The Tolkien estate announced a new Tolkien novel would be published in 2007, 34 years after Tolkien’s death, garnering a great deal of excitement and even concern.'

Hollyberye: 'We picked this book because it can be read independently of the other Tolkien books yet is quite accessible.'

Hollyberye: 'It has been expressed in many places that it falls somewhere between the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings cycle and The Silmarillion, in terms of readability.'

Hollyberye: 'If you are new to this book and have only read the more famous ones, please be advised that it is very dark and deals with mature themes.

Hollyberye: 'Plunging right in, we will briefly discuss Christopher Tolkien’s Preface.'

Hollyberye: 'Christopher Tolkien states that it seemed to him for a long time that there was good cause to present his father’s long version of the legend of the Children of Hurin as a standalone book.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What kind of familiarity do we have among our book club participants as to the legends of Hurin and Turin?'

Malphos: 'I have read not that version, but the Narn I Hin Hurin as it is in the book of Unfinished Tales'

Mornawen: 'I've read the accounts in The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales.'

Elimraen: 'I've only read the material for today, it's all pretty new to me otherwise.'

Malphos: '... or "Nachrichten aus Mittelerde", in German'

Lhinnthel: 'This tale is quite new to me as well.'

Byrcha: 'Same here, I've read the portion of The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales'

Hollyberye: 'Last autumn Cennwyn passed me some draft song lyrics about the Legend of Turin so I did a lot of research and refreshed my memory from having read the Silmarillion a very long time ago'

Mithmenelien: 'I know some of the story, but I haven't read the book before'

Hollyberye: 'Christopher Tolkien states that from a long letter his father wrote in 1951 and other observations, that several of the stories (primarily of men and elves) are fundamental to the entire cycle and deserving of full treatment.'

Hollyberye: 'He names these as the great tale of Beren and Luthien, the Fall of Gondolin, and The Children of Hurin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Just to gauge who can help us along the way when a point of lore arises, do we have any participants who feel well-versed in the Fall of Gondolin, the Tale of Beren and Luthien, or even the entire body of Tolkien work?'

Hollyberye: 'some indication was just given'

Elimraen: 'Not me, sadly!'

Malphos: 'not anymore, as it is quite some time ago since I read the Silmarillion, etc., completely, sorry, so not in active memory ^^'

Hollyberye: 'well we will cross that bridge when we get to it'

Byrcha: 'I've just reread the Beren & Luthien story recently

Hollyberye: 'Oh excellent!'

Hollyberye: 'Moving along now to Christopher Tolkien’s Introduction to The Children of Hurin. Introduction: Middle-earth in the Elder Days'

Hollyberye: 'The reader is introduced to the Eldar Days, a ‘time unimaginably remote.’'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is described as severe, with a sense of justice and compassion; his father Hurin as quick, gay and sanguine; and his mother Morwen as reserved, courageous and proud.'

Hollyberye: 'The household is in the cold country of Dorlomin, during a fearful time after Morgoth broke the Siege of Angband.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is born in winter some six and a half thousand years before the Council in Rivendell with ‘omens of sorrow.’'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Has the distant past of Tolkien’s world influenced your character creation and back story within Lotro? If yes, how?'

Byrcha: 'I gave it thought in-passing for my Elven characters, but haven't come up with anything

Mornawen: 'Yes, my elven characters are old, and have longish backstories. :)

Elimraen: 'No, but my mental pictures/backstories of my characters may well become more developed as this club goes on :) My characters are mostly Elves so there's room for creativity there.'

Malphos: 'not mine. all versions of me are rather in the here and now. I may be biased on that, I am very hobbit-biased'

Lilikate: 'I think for Elves and Men, Dwarves, too, you need to choose which part of the community they belong to'

Mithmenelien: 'No, sadly I don't know enough about the distant past yet to be very influenced by it'

Lhinnthel: 'Unfortunately, when I came to LOTRO, I was only just learning of Tolkien's works. As I learn more over time, I do tend to try and paint myself a picture of who my characters may be -- though none have complete bios to speak of.'

Hollyberye: 'I do tend to create Elves for leveling (hobbits for all else) and I am drawn to their sad history'

Hollyberye: 'Some feel this book helps the reader to better understand the world of Middle Earth, in a way that is more approachable than the Silmarillion. That remains to be seen for first time readers here'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Christopher Tolkien makes it clear that he assembled this, but did not intervene editorially…and that is borne out by the fact that much of this has appeared in other works. Does knowing that this is written in the own hand of J.R.R. Tolkien, not finished by his estate, make you look upon it more favorably?'

Byrcha: 'Definitely, though I'd be confident that the Estate isn't going to totally botch it.'

Hollyberye: 'There was a lot of criticism about how Christopher Tolkien put The Silmarillion together, altering his father’s text. The point is, he really did not with this book.'

Morfindiel: 'Yes, if anyone is qualified to edit JRRT it is Christopher'

Hollyberye: 'Agreed Morfindiel'

Morfindiel: 'He was an Inkling in his own right'

Malphos: 'I am more interested in the consistent world and story. For me, the editing does not make a real difference'

Mornawen: 'I wasn't clear how much was Tolkien. Christopher refers to several versions, and his father never finished a final version.'

Elimraen: 'Yes it does. Though I've loved what I've read of Unfinished Tales which seems to have lots of input from Christopher of course.'

Hollyberye: 'that's good to know Elimraen'

Hollyberye: 'Q. In the introduction, besides laying out the panoply of genealogical history, Christopher Tolkien prepares the reader to expect various themes in the book. One of those would be free will choice versus contending with malevolence targeting a single family.'

Hollyberye: 'It would be great if we could touch on the themes on a recurring basis as we proceed through the book. What themes do you expect to see?'

Malphos: 'the relationship of the different .. levels of beings'

Malphos: 'we have humans, elfs, maiar, valar'

Hollyberye: 'Oh well-said, I hadn't thought of that !'

Elimraen: 'Yes that's a good one!'

Malphos: 'so many different levels of .. power, nature, whatever, you name it'

Malphos: 'how can any human, for any second, withstand

something that is deemed to be a god, or demigod?'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed! I find it very intriguing how the different races interact and describe their time with one another!'

Hollyberye: 'The Nordic saga flavor of the book interests me'

Mornawen: 'And that kind of ties in with the idea of fate, or doom, versus free will.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, exactly'

Hollyberye: 'The outcome of acting prideful in the extreme is another theme I feel'

Hollyberye: 'Mornawen, when you mention free will--'

Hollyberye: 'there is a lot about choice in this book--when you have considerable gifts, how do you chose?'

Mornawen: 'Yes, choosing what seems best at the time.'

Hollyberye: 'okay if I move on but you have a comment on an earlier question, discussion point, just put it in chat please!'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Christopher Tolkien provides a lot of background, including introducing us to Melkor, later known as Morgoth, who was the original Dark Lord. The Sauron to whom we are more familiar is a lieutenant of Morgoth’s. What thoughts do you have on an evil force even more monstrous than Sauron? Are there any descriptive passages in the introduction about Morgoth that you found especially telling?'

Malphos: 'it is like a story about any Greek gods, or other. as long as they stay "with themselves only" it does not really matter - equality of power of some kind, imho'

Lhinnthel: '"my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom...." This passage made me shudder!'

Lilikate: 'He did seem rather two dimensional in his character.'

Elimraen: 'I adored Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth. So powerfully descriptive, with hints at things I don't yet know about - e.g. 'wielder of thralls'.'

Malphos: 'but when their .. "underlings" get in between, it is sometimes strange that they do matter at all'

Elimraen: 'Same, Lhinn!'

Mornawen: 'The chapter with Morgoth and Hurin was interesting, like Malphos said, a god getting mad when a man won't worship him.'

Lhinnthel: 'So well said, Mornawen!'

Malphos: 'and for his "character", well, already in the

Ainulindale he makes "bad music" ;) so that he became part of it all is interesting. It was so "obvious" for the reader, why did eru make him / let him do?'

Lilikate: 'Yes.. I look forward to finding out more about him.'

Malphos: '.. but hopping outside of the story of Hurin, sorry'

Mornawen: 'It just seemed really personal, the grudge between them. More so than in the other versions.'

Lilikate: 'To me se seems more like an angry toddler.'

Malphos: ''

Lilikate: 'Just a powerful one.'

Hollyberye: 'I see your point Lili--his pride is profound and unreasonable'

Hollyberye: 'The curse of Morgoth on Hurin is: ‘Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.’The torment he devised for Hurin was ‘to see with

Morgoth’s eyes.’Q. Where else do we see this idea played out in Tolkien’s body of work?'

Lhinnthel: '*shudders*'

Mornawen: '*shudders too*'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't think it started out being about Hurin at first, but that Morgoth could use him to get to Turgon in Gondolin'

Hollyberye: 'yes excellent point, that really comes out in Chapter 3'

Mornawen: 'Yes, that's so.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, it wouldn't have made any difference to Morgoth if it had been someone else defying him.'

Rozalinde: 'The palantiri are also ways for evil (in that case, Sauron) to let others see via his view--or at times, a distorted view--to drive people mad and to torment them with the truth (or "truth")'

Hollyberye: 'I , too, thought instantly of the palantir, Roz'

Lilikate: 'The ring!'

Hollyberye: 'and Sauron's eye'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien made the curse more complex, even proposing an alternative title, The Tale of the Curse of

Morgoth. We will discuss the curse in depth when we arrive at Chapter Three, rather than here.'

Hollyberye: 'We have glossed over much of the rich detail in the introduction…Treebeard’s memories, the changing geography of the land in the Elder Days, the early history of the Grey Elves, the rebellion against the Valar, the Glorious Battle and subsequent Siege of Angband. There is also an summary of the first men to cross the Blue Mountains, Elf-friends, and men of a different sort, Easterlings.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Are there any particular aspects of this highly detailed introduction that you would like to highlight/comment on, before we move on to Chapter One?'

Mithmenelien: 'The earlier comment about seeing the truth made me think about Cassandra, in Greek mythology who was also cured by a god, to see the truth, but that no one would ever believe her.'

Rozalinde: 'It's really fun to pronounce "Anfauglith"'

Hollyberye: 'that would be a most frustrating existence

Hollyberye: 'haha Roz :)'

Hollyberye: 'Chapter 1: The Childhood of Turin: The chapter opens with an almost Biblical-like genealogy. We learn that both of Turin’s parents are elf-friends, Hurin and Morwen.'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin and his brother, even in their youth, battled orcs and also spent time with the elves. They spent time in the hidden city of Gondolin but wished to return to their own people. The brothers, Huor and Hurin, left as they arrived, borne by the eagles, under an oath of silence.'

Hollyberye: 'In just a few words, Tolkien paints a vivid portrait of Turin as a young lad. Dark-haired, not merry, slow to forgive and quick to pity, and loving his young sister, he preferred to guard her unseen rather than play with her. He also loved his mother but Tolkien conveys that he was uncomfortable with his father.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What does this tell us about the character of the man to come?'

Malphos: 'it makes very clear that he does not seek trouble, he is trouble. You do not expect a happy ending from the very start on'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the doom is palpable'

Rozalinde: 'Flashing neon lights: "Tragedy to come!" Someone with a good heart, but has difficulty emotionally connecting to others, and who has perpetual rain clouds over his head'

Hollyberye: 'well-said'

Mornawen: 'It seems like Hurin is more extroverted, and Turin admires his father, but fears having to live up to him.'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, It tells everything about who he is and will become as a person.'

Hollyberye: 'his father seems almost a stranger to him--absent and very different in personality, to me'

Mornawen: 'For example, Hurin mourns his daughter openly, but Morwen and Turin mourn privately.'

Hollyberye: 'yes'

Hollyberye: 'The shadow of Morgoth lengthened, but hope sprang from tales of Beren and Luthien. But the pestilential Evil Breath, its source attributed to Morgoth (and his stronghold Angband), sickened many (mostly children of men) when Turin was five. Although he survived, his lovely three-year-old elf-like sister, Lalaith died.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is crushed by his sister’s death yet speaks of it to no one, and his only friend is a lame houseman, Sador, maimed through his woodworking. As time passes, Turin questions Sador about things that he is not comfortable asking his unapproachable mother and often absent father.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you make of the discussion the two have of “fate”? Sador has said how it is the fate of men to grow old, unlike the elves. Turin also asks if men suffer some curse, like the Evil Breath that killed his sister.'

Mornawen: 'There's no mention here of Eru's Gift to Men, death as a freeing thing, like in The Silmarillion.'

Rozalinde: 'This is hard to answer without tying it to discussions of Iluvatar's Gift to men, of which I haven't

studied for far too long...'

Hollyberye: 'I would think some men would resent the elves for not getting ill or dying of old age'

Mithmenelien: 'Lalaith seems to be a symbol to me of both fate, death and joy, she is elf like but died and with her the laughter in the house was silenced'

Hollyberye: 'It seems like this continued conversation with Sador, the maimed house-man, is pivotal to Turin’s way of thinking. “It may be that we fled from the fear of the Dark, only to find it here before us…”'

Rozalinde: 'Holly, I think it's interesting that it's a "freeing" thing in the Silmarillion, which is an Elvish perspective (generally), whereas when death is spoken of from men like Sador in this tale, it's a scary thing, and whatever might have been known once is now forgotten, and probably frightening'

Mornawen: 'Yes, exactly.'

Elimraen: 'Turin seems to want the fate of the Eldar for himself, but he doesn't seem to be envious or bitter, it would just be for the sake of seeing his sister again.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin wishes he were an Eldar and vows to go as a soldier to an Elf-King. While Sador admires the fair folk he states that sometimes he thinks it would be better if they had never met. ‘…we burn with too quick a flame, and the weight of our doom lies heavier on us…”'

Malphos: 'that is a kind of general theme Ithink,'

Mornawen: 'It's hard for all of us mortals to think about death.'

Hollyberye: 'yes, Elimraen'

Malphos: 'that this "gift" is not seen as such any more'

Hollyberye: 'When Sador points out the dark side,'

Hollyberye: 'Turin counters that his father loves them, is only happy with them, and that humans have learned all they know from the elves.'

Malphos: 'think of what Arwen says at the end, "if this is the gift of eru to men it is hard to stand" (or such, translated)'

Hollyberye: 'excellent point'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other opinions on this conversation that seems possibly pivotal and highly thematic to the story?'

Rozalinde: '<3 Sador'

Malphos: 'I think it was explicitly written at some point in the pile of stories, that this re-shaping of this "gift" was one of Melkor's works'

Elimraen: 'He stood out to me too Rozalinde. I loved their conversations.'

Hollyberye: 'ahhhh I did not know that, Malphos'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Malphos, that always puzzled me, that Melkor taught men to fear death-- wouldn't they fear it anyways?'

Mithmenelien: 'it's like people started seeing this gift with the eyes of Morgoth'

Rozalinde: '^^^^'

Lilikate: 'The relationship is one that stands out from others because it is a true friendship. Also successful without too many issues as we have seen in Turin's relations with his family.'

Hollyberye: 'good point, Lilikate'

Malphos: 'why, if it was a gift from their creator to leave the bounds of the world? you are full of Melkor's lies yourself, Mornawen ^^'

[lmbbookclub] Mornawen: '*grins*'

[lmbbookclub] Rozalinde: 'hehee'

Hollyberye: 'hehe'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin, of an optimistic outlook, is expecting to be summoned to battle but believes the Eldar will always prevail. However, he and his far more pessimistic wife discuss where she could go if things go ill.'

Hollyberye: 'On Turin’s ninth birthday, his father gives him an Elf-wrought knife and calls him heir of the House of Hador. Turin promptly gives the knife to Sador.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What thoughts do you have on Turin’s motivation in presenting the special gift to his friend and in how his father interpreted the gift-giving?'

Lilikate: 'It is understandable that Turin's Father is miffed at his giving an hairloom away so quickly.'

Elimraen: 'His motive was good and pure, and he gave more weight to Sador's words about giving with a free hand more than he did to his father's about being the heir.'

Rozalinde: 'his mother seems more miffed than his father'

Mithmenelien: 'I think it is a very kind and natural way for the child he is to act in that way, and it reflects on the lessons given to him by Sador'

Lilikate: 'Was the knife an evil blade, there was talk of it cutting the wielder??'

Hollyberye: 'yes! I also thought Turin was a bit carried away at sudden understanding of his status'

Mornawen: 'I loved this anecdote, the description of Turin's pride at receiving the gift, and how he wants to make Sador feel good.'

Hollyberye: 'I don't know that it was evil--does anyone know?'

Rozalinde: 'I think Sador cut himself before with something else'

Lilikate: 'An axe I think...'

Rozalinde: 'and Morwen was making remarks about giving the knife to someone who had hurt himself with another implement'

Hollyberye: 'yes, Turin's mother Morwen felt he was careless'

Hollyberye: 'oh yes'

Mithmenelien: 'I think it was just a warning, because that knife was so much sharper than normal knives'

Mornawen: 'Hurin: "But have a care! It is a bitter blade, and steel serves only those that can wield it. It will cut your hand as willingly as aught else."'

Hollyberye: 'Turin was impressed with the words, ‘Give of your free hand, but give of your own.’ Morwen thought her son scorned the gift but the father said Turin had given love, pity and the knife, the latter being least important.'

Mornawen: 'Foreshadowing...'

Hollyberye: 'Then comes a bright morning when Hurin and his household and guards are armed for war. He lifts Turin in parting and proclaims, ‘Let the heir of the House of Hador see the light of your swords!”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How important is the impression this would make on 9-year-old Turin?'

Lilikate: 'It is a memorable event in his life - very important, huge impression. Something he would aspire to in the future?'

Malphos: 'or hate in memory'

Morfindiel: 'Setting up his pride perhaps'

Hollyberye: 'yes I believe it would be a huge memory for Turin'

Hollyberye: 'If there are no more comments on Chapter One, we will move on to Chapter two?'

Hollyberye: 'Chapter 2: The Battle of Unnumbered Tears'

Hollyberye: 'We receive a descriptive account of the thorough routing of Elves and Men in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.'

Hollyberye: 'On the fifth day the armies of Angband surrounded the army of Fingon. For a time it looked hopeful when Fingon’s brother Turgon of Gondolin came to his aide, and we see Hurin at Fingon’s side.'

Hollyberye: 'But then the tide turned and Gothmog, high-captain of Angband, drove a dark wedge between the Elven-host, until a Balrog came behind Fingon and cast a thong of steel around him, allowing Gothmog to hew him with an axe.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What is this thong of steel? Have any of you encountered such a thing elsewhere in Tolkien’s literature? It sounds like an epic death scene with the Balrog approaching, doesn't it?'

Rozalinde: '*wince*'

Hollyberye: 'yes ++wince++'

Morfindiel: 'Where is Glorfindel when you need him?'

Hollyberye: 'a chapter of many winces'

Hollyberye: 'exactly!'

Lilikate: 'It's nice to have a clue as to the content of a Balrog... So hammered and smelted to be hardened beyond the norm.'

Hollyberye: 'How many Balrogs were there, anyhow?'

Morfindiel: 'And so typical that it comes up from behind'

Morfindiel: 'Not sure. Several at least'

Hollyberye: 'so is the thong of steel some sort of steel pen?'

Mornawen: 'Gothmog was the lord of them, not many.'

Hollyberye: 'Ahhh thanks I did not know that'

Rozalinde: 'or like... a giant steel whip?'

Elimraen: 'It sounds more like a whip to me?'

Morfindiel: 'At least three. Gothmog, the one Gandalf slew and the one Glorfinel slew'

Mornawen: 'A kind of chain?'

Hollyberye: 'Okay a whip, I had not thought of'

Lilikate: 'I thought it was his whip or whip like tail.'

Rozalinde: 'like lasso-ing cattle... only lasso-ing a person... with steel scary ouchness'

Lhinnthel: 'Aye, I thought of a giant steel chain, while reading that passage.'

Lilikate: 'Hot and burny'

Hollyberye: 'Like the Balrog used on Gandalf?'

Elimraen: 'Yes :) '

Hollyberye: '....shudders....'

Malphos: 'which is a nice parallel to the chain then used on Melkor to hold him'

Hollyberye: 'thank you that helps my imagery'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin and his brother Huor remain standing by

Turgon. Hurin urges Turgon to leave the battle and return to the secret Elven hold of Gondolin, or all the Eldar will be lost. Turgon’s army withdrew.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please share any thoughts you have on the repercussions of this Elven retreat.'

Lilikate: 'I thought they faced a rout if they didn't escape. They were in a tight spot no?'

Hollyberye: 'yes, very tight spot, and Hurin so wanted to preserve the Eldar'

Hollyberye: 'it showed incomparable bravery too on Hurin's part, I felt'

Hollyberye: 'Huor died, his eye pierced with a venomous arrow until, last of all, Hurin stood alone.'

Rozalinde: '*wince*'

Hollyberye: 'He swung a two-handed axe, crying Aure entuluva! Or Day shall come again! Seventy times he cried this as he slew his opponents. But at last Hurin was taken alive at the command of Morgoth, who thought he could do him more evil than by death.
'
Mornawen: 'Huor seems to know the future.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Can you imagine what that was like for Hurin to be the last one standing in the field of such hideous battle? What sensations does that evoke in you? Can you think of other examples in literature of such last stands?'

Morfindiel: 'Was it cowardly of the elves to run and let mortals fight their battles for them?'

Mithmenelien: 'It's like Hurin thought that it was more important that the elves survived than that the humans did, it mirrors back to what Turin said about his father loving elves the most'

Hollyberye: 'Morfiniel, that crossed my mind as the first thought'

Elimraen: 'Horror and pity and 'wow, hero' feelings '

Morfindiel: 'They aren't fulfilling their oath to Feanor, about Morgoth'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, it took me a while to realize that it wasn't cowardice but elf-love in a way '

Mornawen: 'But better a secret, hidden force to still resist, I guess, than a total massacre.'

Hollyberye: 'what Hurin did was so sacrificial yet necessary in the scheme of things, one could say'

Elimraen: 'And also there is that prophecy from Huor that must have put some hope for the future in Turgon's mind, if they left?'

Hollyberye: 'can you remind us of that prophecy?'

Lilikate: 'This is where I need a diagram!'

Hollyberye: 'as do I , Lilikate'

Morfindiel: 'Tuor is Huor's son, right?'

Mornawen: 'Something about a new light coming from Turgon and Huor'

Rozalinde: '"from you and me a new star shall rise" or something like that *looks back at book*'

Morfindiel: 'I need a diagram too hehe'

Elimraen: ''Though we part here forever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise''

Hollyberye: 'yes he was the son'

Rozalinde: '*coughEarendilcough*'

Mornawen: 'Literally, a star.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh thank you for reminding us!'

Hollyberye: 'that is very important'

Elimraen: 'Aah, I felt like I should know who that was referencing! :D'

Rozalinde: 'Wish we could copy/paste and share images of the family trees into chat'

Morfindiel: 'So Huor is Elrond's Great Grandfather?'

Elimraen: 'I plan to draw out my own :S'

Hollyberye: 'yes and related to Aragorn, as well, I believe'

Hollyberye: 'At the conclusion of the chapter we learn that although Morgoth’s triumph was great, he is troubled that he most wanted to take or destroy Turgon, the one who escaped.'

Byrcha: 'there are family trees in the appendices of both Silmarillion and Return of the King'

Rozalinde: 'neener neener, Morgoth'

Hollyberye: 'Turgon would now be King of Noldor and he was of the great house of Fingolfin, that had scorned Morgoth in Valinor. And especially, Morgoth dreaded that at some distant time he would be ruined by Turgon.'

Elimraen: 'In your face Morgoth!'

Hollyberye: 'thank you Byrcha'

Hollyberye: 'Q. It is interesting that the monstrous Morgoth has his own fears. Any thoughts on this or insight from those who have read more of Morgoth’s backstory?'

Lhinnthel: 'There is a family tree in the back of this book as well'

Hollyberye: 'yes I have consulted it a few times already'

Elimraen: 'Ooh so there is!'

Lilikate: 'Print is however very small! I need Lizzy's magnifying glass!'

Byrcha: 'The Elrond and Aragorn family trees are in the other two though. (Elrond is indeed related to Aragorn)'

Lhinnthel: 'Ah!'

Rozalinde: 'Holly, it reminds me of Gandalf saying how the free folk's greatest advantage against Sauron is that "doubt ever gnaws at him"'

Hollyberye: 'Excellent point!'

Rozalinde: 'even the most powerful evil is consumed by fear...'

Mornawen: 'He's very controlling and hence, very insecure.'

Hollyberye: 'He worries so much he misses things'

Rozalinde: 'Yes'

Lilikate: 'So all they need is a cunning plan...'

Rozalinde: 'Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the dark side... wait, wrong universe. Sorry.'

Hollyberye: 'but a great analogy'

Rozalinde: ':-)'

Hollyberye: '...and a cunning plan that takes millenium to unfold!'

Mornawen: '*laughs*'

Byrcha: 'This is not the book club you're thinking of'

Hollyberye: 'I am going to move on to chapter three and if we run out of time, we can revisit three next time, okay?'

Rozalinde: 'Heheee Byrcha!'

Hollyberye: 'Chapter 3: The Words of Hurin and Morgoth'

Hollyberye: 'The narrative describes how Morgoth dealt with the remaining enemies and allies of his victory, tells how he still fears Turgon and then turns his attention to Hurin.'

Hollyberye: 'He tries to compel Hurin into revealing where Turgon’s secret fortress is and more, but Hurin refuses, even though he is ‘chained and set in slow torment’. Finally, Morgoth curses Hurin, Morwen and their offspring.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Where did Hurin get the strength to refuse Morgoth? Any comments on the language he used to refuse Morgoth?'

Lilikate: 'Is he always trying to hurt people by hurting the ones they love? So the main choice is to love or not to love?'

Elimraen: 'He's scornful of Morgoth, isn't he.'

Hollyberye: 'yes, amazingly so'

Rozalinde: 'very brave'

Lilikate: 'He gives him a bit of a telling off.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think he got his knowledge from his stay in Gondolin and the counsels of Turgon'

Hollyberye: 'I suppose it is partly tied to Hurin's uncompromising faith in the Eldar'

Elimraen: 'Which you'd expect to have bad consequences, aiming that kind of scorn at someone so insecure and powerful'

Rozalinde: 'and it does, Elimraen'

Lhinnthel: 'Hurin's words are so brave in the face of such doom. he says: "For you have spent your strength upon yourself and wasted it in your own emptiness."'

Hollyberye: 'I was wondering what Morgoth looked like, what shape he took?'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Lhinn... sad.'

Hollyberye: 'For such a happy man, he can muster epic bravery and profoundness'

Elimraen: 'Maybe I should have said 'he should have expected' :)'

Morfindiel: 'And why did the Valar let this doom stand.'

Lhinnthel: 'I just found that line very telling of both of their characters.'

Hollyberye: 'agreed, Lhinn'

Mornawen: 'Hurin doesn't fear death, Morgoth had to find another way to break him.'

Lilikate: 'Yea I do like that line..'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, Mornawen!'

Hollyberye: 'Not fearing death is profoundly strengthening'

Lhinnthel: 'And extremely angering to Morgoth!'

Mithmenelien: 'and very dangerous to the people closest to him in this case'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you think of the Alan Lee illustration of Hurin chained in his chair?'

Rozalinde: '*shudders*'

Elimraen: 'Haunting '

Hollyberye: 'Hurin looked so different to me than I pictured him before at home'

Rozalinde: 'Oddly enough, it makes me think of Frodo's vision on Amon Hen'

Hollyberye: 'Oh! Had not thaought of that!'

Lilikate: 'It is haunting, at first you don't see he is chained... Yes I thought of Amon Hen and one of the great seats'

Mithmenelien: 'very expressive, it paints the picture of the words perfectly!'

Lhinnthel: 'To be helpless against the seeing and knowing.. so utterly helpless.. *cries*'

Hollyberye: 'yes, Frodo had that haunted look and was frozen to the Eye'

Lilikate: 'Also of the Argonath'

Mornawen: 'Aw...'

Mornawen: '*hugs Lhinn*'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the Argonath!'

Rozalinde: '*joins hug*'

Elimraen: '*big group hug*'

Hollyberye: '((group hug))'

Lilikate: 'On my cover he is standing with sword on a hilltop'

Lilikate: 'No Chains'

Hollyberye: 'yes the first three illustrations are that cover, the brothers flying to Gondolin and then this one of Hurin'

Morfindiel: 'Yes, we may have to start the Children of Hurin support group if we want to finish the book with our psyches intact...'

Hollyberye: 'But it looked like his wrist might be shackled?'

Mornawen: 'I pictured Hurin with golden curly hair, no beard, dimples. Not sure why.'

Rozalinde: 'Agreed, Morfindiel'

Elimraen: 'I'm in!'

Lhinnthel: 'It's as if he is drawn to what he sees, yet he holds fast to the chair rails with such .. I don't know..sorrow in his eyes. *sighs*'

Hollyberye: 'Hollyberye has a slotted emote that she stops to meditate upon the Curse of Turin, but that is taking on new meaning...'

Hollyberye: 'The actual curse is ‘Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world.’'

Hollyberye: 'When Huron mocks Morgoth, Morgoth says he is the actual Elder King and mightiest of the Valar, and elaborates on the curse:'

Lilikate: 'That image of Turin in the chair is so striking'

Hollyberye: '‘…upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darnkness and despair. Whereever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them, They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.’'

Hollyberye: 'Q. So far as curses go what do you think of the Morgoth curse levied on Hurin in Chapter 3? This is pivotal to Turin’s life; all should feel free to discuss it at length.'

Mornawen: 'That's a lot of things for Morgoth to promise.'

Morfindiel: 'I don't understand why Manwe didn't do something. After all, men were not part of the curse of the elves'

Elimraen: 'It's immense, if it's true. No choice that any of them make ever again can turn out well.'

Hollyberye: 'It's pretty much the worst curse I have stumbled upon in literature...'

Lilikate: 'It's a humdinger and no mistake!'

Elimraen: '(It reminds me of something from the Kingkiller Chronicles by Pat Rothfuss)'

Lilikate: 'He covered most of his bases in that curse...'

Hollyberye: '((I haven't read that))
'
Hollyberye: 'Let me just add one more bit from the chapter--'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin dismisses this as language he has heard before and tells Morgoth that he is an escaped thrall of the Valar. In reprisal Morgoth takes Hurin back to Angband and sets him in a high place on a stone share where he cannot do anything except but gaze afar on the lands where Morgoth will spread evil and despair.'

Rozalinde: 'It's striking to me that in Tolkien's world, evil spells/magic is rarely a big flash-bang thing. It's an insidious little infection of evil thought, generally nudging people with generally good intentions onto evil paths'

Hollyberye: '‘With my eyes you shall see and with my ears you shall hear.’'

Morfindiel: 'So were the rest of the Valar just sitting around eating popcorn and wondering what will happen. I just don't understand that at all.'

Mornawen: 'I think Manwe didn't interfere, because Morgoth was pretty much boasting, he had no ultimate power to do it.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes magic is very understated'

Morfindiel: 'Ah, I guess that is the question. Did Morgoth do it or did Turin do it to himself.'

Elimraen: 'That is interesting Rozalinde.'

Mornawen: 'He could instruct all his servants, make known his will about Hurin's folk, make them pay special attention?'

Lilikate: 'Ahh so it was power of suggestion only?'

Elimraen: 'So, a self-fulfilling prophecy?'

Hollyberye: 'I think a recurring theme is how much of the outcome was Turin's own doing'

Morfindiel: 'Still *shakesfist at Valar'

Lilikate: 'ooh'

Elimraen: 'Oh interesting!'

Rozalinde: 'Okay, so I have a thought'

Rozalinde: 'Earlier, I was going to ask how much you all thought that the visions he showed Hurin were true'

Rozalinde: 'because, one of the recurring themes of the palantiri (which are similar) were that sometimes they were true, and sometimes they were perverted visions, contaminated by Sauron's will'

Lhinnthel: 'Just having the words of the curse in your thoughts would be enougt to interfere with your own free will.'

Hollyberye: 'that is very true Roz!'

Mornawen: '*nods*'

Lhinnthel: 'Whether or not the curse had actual substance or not.'

Rozalinde: 'So... if it all WERE Turin's doing... maybe Morgoth's evil was just in making Hurin see every last bit of his childrens' undoing?'

Hollyberye: '::agrees with Lhinn::'

Elimraen: 'So, does Turin find out about the curse later on?'

Morfindiel: 'Maybe Morgoth knew what would happen'

Mornawen: 'How so?'

Morfindiel: 'He knew what would happen so he made Hurin watch it all, and made it sound as if it was his curse.'

Lilikate: 'For me it is all a big puzzle to mull over.'

Morfindiel: '*agrees with Lili'

Mornawen: 'It is an existential puzzle!'

Elimraen: 'Indeed!'

Lhinnthel: 'Hmm, that is a thought'

Hollyberye: 'Elimraen, yes, Turin and others learn of the curse, it just hasn't happened yet in the book'

Mithmenelien: 'the magic Morgoth is using is very much like the way negative thought can influence you're mind in real life.'

Byrcha: 'A gamble on Morgoth's part -- he's planting the seeds of evil, but like any gardener you don't really know what you will harvest, no matter your intent'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes!'

Elimraen: 'Ok thanks Holly :)'

Rozalinde: 'Agreed, Mith!'

Hollyberye: '--and that can be profound'

Hollyberye: '--and coming from a being like Morgoth, triply profound I would hazard'

Hollyberye: 'Good point Byrcha'

Hollyberye: 'what shape does Morgoth take?'

Lilikate: 'Big Wooden Spoon?'

Hollyberye: 'is he like a spirit in armour?

Hollyberye: 'hahaha'

Elimraen: 'Hah! XD'

Rozalinde: 'there's an excellent painting somewhere of Morgoth with his hammer Grond...'

Rozalinde: 'I don't think it appears in this book'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I will look for that'

Mithmenelien: 'Tolkien writes about a very psychological version of magic here, it mirrors the real world very well'

Hollyberye: 'It sure took something special to call Morgoth a thrall of the Valar'

Lilikate: 'Mayhap he should have stayed quiet?'

Hollyberye: 'I think his future was hopeless, regardless'

Lilikate: 'Is being brave and speaking out always the right thing to do''

Rozalinde: 'John Howe's painting, I think? Morgoth with Grond:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100106165045/lotr/images/b/b0/Melkor3.pjpg.jpg'

Elimraen: 'Fingolfin says that he wants to see Morgoth's face, in his challenge to him in the intro.'

Mornawen: 'He was possibly high on adrenalin?'

Hollyberye: 'He was spared being killed as Morgoth thought he could get to Turgon through Hurin'

Byrcha: 'Maybe he thought that insulting Morgoth would lead to his (Hurin's) death, thus denying him the prize of Gondolin?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes he was in a beserker rage on that last stand'

Mornawen: 'That sounds likely, Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Hurin probably wasn't expecting this outcome at all'

Hollyberye: 'I think it must have surprised him'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't know wath Morgoth looks like, but I think of him as huge, dark and scary, but maybe that is part of the fear of him that we don't get to know what he looks like, he's this faceless evil looming over everything'

Rozalinde: '^'

Mornawen: 'And Morgoth had only dealt with the Easterling men, maybe he was surprised how Elf-like Hurin was.'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin is an elf ally through and through, that is for certian'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments on the curse or chapter three?'

Lilikate: 'It was epic!'

Hollyberye: 'Indeed!'

Lilikate: 'As curses go it was impressive!'

Elimraen: 'Yes, Tolkien writes epic like no other!'

Lilikate: 'Impressive too!'

Rozalinde: 'This book club is the best thing ever. Oops, that's not specifically about chapter 3...'

Lhinnthel: 'I wan to read the rest of the book - it was hard to stop :D'

Mithmenelien: 'But didn't Hurin mention that his people had come in contact with Morgoth before they came to this new land or did I misunderstand?'

Hollyberye: 'I want to confess that when I started reading Tolkien at about 12 years, I glossed over the battle scenes (cringe)'

Rozalinde: ', Holly'

Lilikate: 'I still find this book a challenging read more than others.'

Hollyberye: 'I don't recall, Mithmenelien'

Mornawen: 'Hm, Mith, was it Morgoth's servants?'

Hollyberye: 'It IS a challenging read, I had to read the beginning several times to absorb it all--I read this part of the book and listened to Christopher Lee's recording several times'

Mornawen: 'Hurin: "Such things you spoke long ago to our fathers; but we escaped from your shadow."'

Elimraen: 'I found reading it out loud helped!'

Lhinnthel: 'I do remember Hurin sayign something like that, Mith'

Hollyberye: 'Oh excellent point'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, that was it Mornarwen!'

Lilikate: 'The Audio hooked me now I will try harder and in good light'

Lhinnthel: 'I LOVED the pronounciation key!'

Hollyberye: 'I plan to read along with the club--possibly not read ahead'

Mithmenelien: 'and Yes I was reading out loud to! :D'

Hollyberye: 'yes and I love hearing Christopher Lee read it'

Rozalinde: 'How many of you are reading it for the first time?'

Lilikate: 'Me'

Elimraen: 'I am!'

Lhinnthel: 'o/'

Hollyberye: 'Holly for one'

Mithmenelien: 'I am!'

Rozalinde: 'Whoo!'

Mornawen: '*raises hand*'

Rozalinde: 'Awesome'

Hollyberye: 'I gave it to my son for his 12th birthday, his copy I am reading'

Lilikate: 'Well done us!'

Rozalinde: 'I've read it before, but it's been several years'

Morfindiel: 'I have read it before but I find it the most troubling of Tolkien's work'

Morfindiel: 'So I have only read it once, unlike his other writings'

Lilikate: 'I tried reading it after I bought it on my last UK trip but failed at the first chapter.'

Hollyberye: 'I enjoyed helping Cennwyn with her Turin lyrics and that was my exposure to it after a very long time'

Morfindiel: 'I may have to get the audiobook'

Lilikate: 'It is like reading one of the Greek Historians'

Hollyberye: 'Lili posted a free link to the audio in our post'

Lilikate: 'Free on Utube!'

Rozalinde: 'Some books work better when accompanied by discussion groups... which is why it's awesome you all are doing this and letting me join in. :-)'

Hollyberye: 'At a future time I want to discuss the Finnish myth it is supposedly based on'

Rozalinde: 'Ooooo'

Elimraen: 'I am so excited about this group :)'

Hollyberye: 'We thank you so much for participating today. The chat log will be posted and we'll figure out a next meeting time. Feedback on how this book discussion is handled are welcome!'

Morfindiel: 'Oh yes, the Kalavala'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, it's very much like the tale of Oedipus'

The group discussed continuing on with this format going forward. We will probably meet every other week on Saturday, late afternoon, server time. However, the April schedule is challenging with the Spring Carnival races--time for next book club to be announced!

**Anyone reading this is welcome to post their responses to discussion points!** I left everyone's comments in about whether they are new to this book so that you do not feel shy about joining in, please. We also discussed prior experiences with book clubs before today.

MANY THANKS to the thoughtful comments from all, and for participating! It is wonderful to be reading this dark book with a group of Tolkien fans.

[Rozalinde]

I had so much fun at this book club discussion last Saturday. Holly, you are an excellent discussion leader, and there were so many thoughtful comments from everyone. I'm already excitedly looking forward to the next meeting!

[Elimraen]

It was a lovely way to spend an evening! This book has been on my shelf for ages and I'm so excited for this opportunity to read it with people who care about Tolkien so much. Really looking forward to the next one, thanks for all the time and effort you've put in/are still putting in, Holly and Lili!

[Hollyberye]

The second session to discuss The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien will occur on Saturday, 11 April 2015, at approximately 5PM server time. I apologize for the later start as I know that it is difficult for some of our European participants. We will resume a 4PM start in May, when the Spring Racing Events are over.

We will discuss the book via the channel /lmbbookclub, remotely or in the Bird and Baby Inn in Michel Delving.

Our next discussion will cover Chapter IV: The Departure of Turin, Chapter V: Turin in Doriath, and Chapter VI: Turin Among the Outlaws. That's the plan...we hope to keep it to an hour and a half and that can determine how far we progress.

New participants are most welcome! An interesting, albeit gloomy time is guaranteed, but you will have a built in support group if it gets too dire...this is epic Tolkien!

Hope you can make it,

Hollyberye

[Elimraen]

Aah, I'm going to be away for my birthday next weekend. Have a great time, I'll really look forward to reading the chat here afterwards :) I had a long drive today so I downloaded the Christopher Lee-narrated audiobook, loving the next part of the story!

(By the way, Mithmenelien, I loved your 'Student of the Past' title choice last week! =D )

[Hollyberye]

Elvanui wrote:

Aah, I'm going to be away for my birthday next weekend. Have a great time, I'll really look forward to reading the chat here afterwards :) I had a long drive today so I downloaded the Christopher Lee-narrated audiobook, loving the next part of the story! (By the way, Mithmenelien, I loved your 'Student of the Past' title choice last week! =D )

We will really miss Elimraen. But HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I hope it is a lovely celebratory weekend.

::Birthday Toasts::

Holly

[Elimraen]

Aw, thanks Holly! Elimraen will miss you all too!

[Isilerin]

I had such a wonderful time at the Book club! Thank you all so much, I'm really looking forward to the next time! =D

Most of my responses to the questions and to what other people wrote, took to long for me to write though, so the conversation had already moved on by the time I've finished writing it, so I apologies if that made it confusing to read.

Hollyberye wrote:

Mithmenelien: 'The earlier comment about seeing the truth made me think about Cassandra, in Greek mythology who was also cured by a god, to see the truth, but that no one would ever believe her.'

Sorry I meant to write that she was cursed by a god, not cured.
(in short she rejected Apollo, and he became angry about that and cursed her to see the truth as in the horrible future to come and that no one would believe her, so she was instead perceived as utterly insane by everyone)

Hollyberye wrote:

Hollyberye: 'Hollyberye has a slotted emote that she stops to meditate upon the Curse of Turin, but that is taking on new meaning...'

Funny coincidence, I hadn't read about the children of Hurin before, neither in the Silmarilion nor in the lost tales, but I became curious about 'the curse of Turin' when I noticed you using that very emote during our first Raiders of the Secret Pie Vault sessions, and looked it up on the Internet. So that emote actually gave me my first little glimpse into the story of this book! =D

Elvanui wrote:

Aah, I'm going to be away for my birthday next weekend. Have a great time, I'll really look forward to reading the chat here afterwards :) I had a long drive today so I downloaded the Christopher Lee-narrated audiobook, loving the next part of the story! (By the way, Mithmenelien, I loved your 'Student of the Past' title choice last week! =D )

Aw, thank you, I love it to, it's my favorite title for Mithmenelien so far! :)
and Happy Birthday! =D I hope you have a absolutely wonderful celebration! =D

Lilikate wrote:

For all those who may find listening an easier experience I found a wonderful read of this book on YouTube. Wonderfully read by Christopher Lee, the first three chapters flew by for me and were highly entertaining if a little sad. No prologue or intro in this link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkdQmQSa98Q

Thank you for the link Lillikate!

I found it really nice to listen to that while reading along in the book at the same time, since Christopher Lee reads rather slowly it was no problems keeping up with his pace in the book, it worked really well and gave a deeper understanding for me! =D


Ops, this post became much longer than I had indented, sorry

[Hollyberye]

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session 2...Chapters 4 & 5

Attendees gathered in the Bird and Baby Inn and known to be in the chat channel /lmbbookclub: Hollyberye, Lilikate, Mornawen, Mithmenelien, Malphos, Lhinnthel, Byrcha, Rozalinde, Calycanthus, Corvelian
(if you name is missing send Holly a message)

Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate.'

Lilikate: 'Hello!'

Hollyberye: 'We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to continue discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien.'

Hollyberye: 'All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the
discussion but cannot attend all sessions.'

Hollyberye: 'We will not be capturing text in other channels or /say and possibly not emotes (unless irresistibly amusing or germane to the
meeting). We may have participants in the channel who are not in the Bird and Baby Inn.'

Hollyberye: 'Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub. We will edit out comments like ‘Sorry, I'm late.’'

Hollyberye: 'As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points.However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly.'

Hollyberye: 'In our second session we will cover chapters four, five and six or until time runs out (approximately 6:30PM server time).'

NOTE: We covered chapters four and five, no time for six.

Hollyberye: 'We picked this book because it can be read independently of the other Tolkien books yet is quite accessible. It has been expressed in many places that it falls somewhere between the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings cycle and The Silmarillion, in terms of readability.'

Hollyberye: 'If you are new to this book and have only read the more famous ones, please be advised that it is very dark and deals with mature themes.'

Hollyberye: 'Chapter IV: The Departure of Turin'

Hollyberye: 'We find Morwen, silent with grief and expecting a child, and Turin, at aged nine, prisoners of sorts in their home of Dor-lomin, yet untouched by the cruel Easterlings who feared she was a witch and had dealings with the “white-fiends”—the Elves.'

Hollyberye: 'Sador, Turin’s friend, and a few old men and women remained as the house falls into decay. The bold Easterling Brodda forced a Hurin kinswoman, Aerin, to marry him, and she is able to provide alms to Morwen, bitter though they are to accept.'

Hollyberye: 'Although they seldom spoke of it, Turin believes his father is dead or he would come to aid them, but Morwen does not believe Hurin dead or able to come to them.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Brodda and the other Easterlings are portrayed as thieves and enslavers and also as very fearful of the “white-fiend” Elves. Comments on preconceptions of Easterlings and how these passages altered your opinion?'

Hollyberye: '...and If you know the background of how the Easterlings reached this state of character, please share it.'

Calycanthus: 'Easterlings were always like that, even in the earliest drafts, if I recall correctly.'

Lilikate: 'What stood out for me is the concept of Thralldom.'

Malphos: 'I think with all these groups "at the border" of the stories, they are not portrayed in much detailed. Sure here they are living ones, with their own normal motives, but they still seem to be primitive. and not .. painted to the finish, in a way.'

Byrcha: 'It reminded me of information on the Easterlings of the Third Age.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought the Easterlings were even worse after I read this...it put a little more solidity on them for me. I agree hazy, though.'

Lilikate: 'We are told that Easterlings are cruel, and enslave freefolks.'

Calycanthus: 'In a lot of ways, Easterlings are flat characters, designed to be depictions of humans who have rejected the good. Not a lot of nuance to them.'

Hollyberye: 'I feel I have been more influenced by the game and movies, both of which are a bit inaccurate about Easterlings, I fear.'

Calycanthus: 'Almost the equivalent of orcs, although with the idea of their having had more free will in becoming as they were.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, free will sets the humans apart, doesn't it?'

Hollyberye: 'Lilikate, you made a very nice point about Thralldom and I have that as a discussion point later.'

Calycanthus: 'Though it is interesting to note that despite how they're actually portrayed in the books, Tolkien very firmly held onto the idea that they (both orcs and Easterlings) were not all or inevitably evil. Just most of them.'

Mornawen: 'There's no sense of their culture, their songs or stories.'

Mornawen: 'Like Caly said, it's very flat.'

Mithmenelien: 'I saw this as a powerful description of Morwen also, she must also have had a lot of inner strength to cause such a degree of dread to the Easterling Brodda from just looking at her.'

Hollyberye: 'Does anyone know if a more robust and complete picture is painted by Tolkien of the Easterlings in other books/tales?--Perfect seque Mithmenelian--'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why does Morwen inspire such fear in the Easterlings?

Calycanthus: 'Unless it shows up in other draft material later, not to my knowledge. (re: Holly's previous question)'

Hollyberye: 'Okay, thanks Calycanthus.'

Lilikate: 'We only see Faramir opening into the questions of our and Gondor's concept of these people.'

Byrcha: 'They're seldom even named, even in the LOTR appendices.'

Malphos: 'I dont see that this fear is really explained. I see it like the living with the elves (what house Hador always did, as far as I remember) did leave some traces in behaviour, "light in the eyes", or whatever, and they fear that .. echo of the elves and further behind the powers of the West?'

Mornawen: 'They are superstitious about the Elves and the Valar, rather than admiring of them.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I guess she was touched in some way by the elves through association?'

Mithmenelien: 'Morwen being elf like helped them, made them afraid just because she reminded them of elfs.'

Hollyberye: 'and they were labeled as white -fiends! I never once thought of elves in that way.'

Malphos: 'Here you are again, you pale folks ^^ .'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, and immortal to boot.'

Hollyberye: 'Morwen’s heart grows darker as she fears Turin will be no more than a slave to the Easterlings as he grows older.'

Hollyberye: 'She contemplates Hurin’s advice of old, to go swiftly, to beg King Thingol to harbor them. She decides that she cannot leave, heavy with child and always hoping Hurin will return, but determines to send Turin to be fostered by Thingol.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. This decision of Morwen’s to deny Hurin’s voice is characterized as the “first strand of the fate of Turin…woven”. Can you explain or elucidate on that?'

Malphos: 'Is it? it is again a choice to make, with both options having possibly bad consequences.'

Calycanthus: 'Part of it has to do with spoilers... But a great tragedy later would have been averted if mother and son had not been separated.'

Malphos: 'Typical for the picture of the race of man.'

Malphos: 'Right. If she/her baby had survived traveling at that time.'

Calycanthus: 'It's also implied that Turin might not have become as... lost... if she had been around for him. Actually, even that would have
helped.'

Hollyberye: 'I enjoy--although not the right word--how Tolkien states that-- the first strand of fate.'

Calycanthus: '(I'm assuming there's people here who aren't familiar with the rest of the plot?)'

Hollyberye: 'Correct. I am reading only as far as we discuss--although I generally know the story from elsewhere. We decided not to jump ahead in discussion.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is extremely agitated at the thought of leaving his mother behind, and the lame Sador, as well as not staying behind to defend the House of Hador of which he is heir.'

Hollyberye: 'Morwen says she is sending Turin away to be King Thingol’s guest in Doriath, so that he need not learn what it is to be a thrall. Turin is grieved and bewildered.'

Byrcha: 'Her delay implies the influence of Morgoth's words earlier.'

Mornawen: 'Morwen's pride was a factor-- she didn't want Turin to be a thrall, even though he wouldn't have been poorly treated.'

Hollyberye: 'Both great points.'

Calycanthus: 'It was also a factor in her choosing to stay--her pride made her unwilling to go beg charity for herself.'

Hollyberye: 'He speaks to Saldor, debates about but refuses to take back the knife he once gave the woodsman, and asks what is a thrall.'

Hollyberye: 'Through Sador’s mouth, Tolkien gives us a vivid and poignant summary of thralldom:“A man who was a man but is treated as a beast, fed only to keep alive, kept alive only to toil, toiling only for fear of pain or death…”'

Hollyberye: 'Sador adds, “they have learned quicker from the Orcs that we learnt from the Fair Folk.”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please offer up any thoughts you have on what it is to be a thrall, especially in Tolkien’s world, and the debate over the knife.'

Malphos: 'I think that part is missing in the book of the lost tales?'

Calycanthus: 'Thrall is a synonym for slave.'

Malphos: 'Well .. it is at least near.'

Calycanthus: 'Regarding the knife, I think the point is that Turin does not feel it is right to take back that which he himself gave freely. Even if he might have need of it and it is offered back freely.'

Malphos: 'Interestingly in the German translations they use 'Sklave', not 'Leibeigener' ,what would be thrall.'

Hollyberye: 'Hmmm that is interesting.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought the words from Sador's mouth were particularly vivid and poignant.'

Calycanthus: 'I would agree with that.'

Hollyberye: 'For me it painted what a thrall is so clearly.'

Lilikate: 'Is there any actual difference between the meanings?'

Hollyberye: 'As an American, our understanding of slavery is profound and I feel there is a distinction of sorts.'

Calycanthus: 'Not that I'm aware of, in English, anyway.'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't think a thrall is owned by anyone as a slave is.'

Mornawen: 'To me, a slave is a person who is possessed by another legally, a thrall is enslaved just by force of arms.'

Malphos: 'Depending on the system of jurisdiction, power etc. right, actual ownership is a difference.'

Hollyberye: 'I can accept that distinction.'

Malphos: 'And if you may freely destroy your toy/tool, i.e., kill a slave or thrall, depends as said on the context. Ancient Greece was very different from the middle age.'

Hollyberye: 'Lilikate did you have any thing to add, you mentioned how struck you were earlier by thralldom.'

Lhinnthel: 'I leaned towards thralldom meaning when someone is so beaten down and "trapped" that they no longer have a will of their own--over being a slave. '

Hollyberye: 'Yes I do see what you mean, Lhinn.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, a broken spirit.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes.'

Malphos: 'Agreed.'

Hollyberye: 'If at any time you want to make a point about an earlier part, please do! Any of you!'

Hollyberye: 'Sador reminds Turin of his words when he was younger, ‘I shall go as a soldier with an Elf-king, as soon as I am able.’'

Hollyberye: 'Turin stays his tears and says very well, he must keep his word but comments that whenever he says he will do this or that, it looks very different when the time comes. Turin adds that he must take care not to say such things again. Turin departs, but in great anguish for his mother.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. This was the first of the sorrows of Turin, Tolkien writes. Comments, please?'

Hollyberye: 'do you think we are going to get an accounting of the specific sorrows all the way thru the book?'

Mornawen: 'Yes!'

Lilikate: 'His first sorrow was being parted from his home and family so young.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes I think we are.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, although what about when his little sister died? He was heartbroken! So I took it to mean the first sorrow post-curse.'

Rozalinde: 'Agreed'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed, I think we will get an account of each of the sorrows of Turin! AH, post-curse, a good point!'

Hollyberye: 'Because his sister "laughter's" death was heart breaking...I just remember her name meant laughter.'

Mithmenelien: 'Then his sister died, the curse had'nt been cast yet, so there might be a diffrence.'

Hollyberye: 'That's what I am thinking, yes.'

Mithmenelien: 'Lalaith was her name :)'

Hollyberye: 'Thank you!'

Malphos: 'But is this a real difference? or only imposed on the reader, by means of storytelling?'

Hollyberye: 'Maybe also this is something under the family of Hurin's control.'

Mornawen: 'I thought it was so poignant, his parting. Why did he call her name as he left?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, very very sad.'

Rozalinde: 'I don't know that there's much difference. If Morgoth's "curse" penetrates Turin's life so completely, who's to say it had to start cleanly at one specific time?'

Mornawen: 'And she had such a strong will, to send him away, even though it caused her immense pain.'

Calycanthus: 'It being listed as the 'first sorrow' may also just be an artifact of this being composed of different drafts. Lalaith doesn't appear in the earliest drafts.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh! I did not know that! Thank you.'

Mornawen: 'I didn't know that, either!'

Rozalinde: 'And based on our discussion last time--about how much of the curse is Morgoth's doing and how much is just foreseen, and made known to Hurin--that could make a difference, too.'

Malphos: 'Oh, good point Caly!'

Mithmenelien: 'When his sister died the sorrow was cleaner in a way, a part of nature.'

Hollyberye: 'Exactly.'

Mornawen: 'Not chosen, just a thing that happened.'

Hollyberye: 'Well, we can only speculate, but that is one of the joys of discussing a book.'

Rozalinde: ':-)'

Hollyberye: 'After Turin leaves, Morwen gives birth to Nienor, which means mourning.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin’s road is long and evil, with signs of Morgoth’s ever-extending reach.'

Hollyberye: 'By fate and courage, Gethron, Grithnir and Turin reach the confines of Doriathbut, then are enmeshed in Queen Melian’s mazes.'

Malphos: 'Like she wanted to make that new life a tragic one.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes! What a difference in a name.'

Hollyberye: 'It is Beleg the Strongbow, greatest woodsman of the day (Elf) who rescues the trio and looks with liking upon Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg receives permission to guide them to the hidden kingdom, where Thingol and Melian will become guardians to Turin. The only mortal man to have seen Thingol’s Halls before was Beren.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What is the significance of Thingol taking Turin as his foster-son?'

Mithmenelien: 'About the previous question, The first post curse sorrow is more tainted by feelings of betrayal and abandonment.'

Malphos: 'It is a classic tale. of kings and their peers. We do not talk about commoners. Typical for literature until fairly recently.'

Calycanthus: 'Well part of the significance is that Thingol is treating Turin--a mere human--with a great deal of respect in that act. And also committing himself to providing more than just basic necessities for him.'

Lilikate: 'But they are related right?'

Hollyberye: 'Thingol taking on Turin as foster-father really brought home to me how heroic and selfless Hurin was in supporting the Elves.'

Hollyberye: 'Excellent point Lilikate.'

Lilikate: 'Thingol, father of Luthien.'

Calycanthus: 'Yes, but it's a pretty tenuous connection.'

Lilikate: 'Married Beren and had Half elfy babies.'

Malphos: 'what we do not see, in all these "first meetings", is how they recognize each other. you know, no passports or something like that. "Hi, I am Turin, your grandson!" (or whatever)'

Lilikate: 'I can understand wanting to see how they get along down the line, and wanting to help a bit.'

Byrcha: 'Wait, Turin isn't related to Thingol is he?'

Mornawen: 'Morwen's father was Beren One-hand's cousin...'

Rozalinde: 'Distantly.'

Calycanthus: 'He is. Beren is the nephew of Morwen's grandfather.'

Mornawen: 'Kind of tenuous.'

Malphos: 'Well nodirect line, but he calls Beren kin. Sorry, cannot

recall the exact connection.'

Byrcha: 'Ah, ok, I missed/forgot that or didn't look closely at the family trees.'

Hollyberye: 'So which was more important--the blood line or Hurin's devotion to Thingol?'

Lilikate: 'Well what's wrong with him taking an interest in the boy? Doesn't seem to be any mistakes being made as yet.'

Calycanthus: 'Not saying it's wrong, just saying I don't think the family connection was all that important.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought Turin's acceptance into the Hall was wonderful.'

Calycanthus: 'I think it had more to do with the respect the elves had for Hurin, his father, as the story states.'

Byrcha: 'Well, it is unprecedented anyway, since Turin is a Man, not an Elf.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, he is only the second man to enter that Hall.'

Malphos: 'But it is he, Thingol himself, who makes himself guardian of Turin. As mentioned, accepts him as a kind of peer. That is important, I'd say.'

Lilikate: 'Remember at first he is just a boy of nine.'

Malphos: 'I agree, Caly.'

Rozalinde: 'And interesting, given the lingering emotional impact on Thingol from what happened to his daughter, because of a man.'

Lhinnthel: 'It does mention Thingol set Turin on his knee in honor of Hurin and Berin (his kinsman).'

Hollyberye: 'I thought so too, Roz.'

Hollyberye: 'That's a grand image, Lhinn.'

Mithmenelien: 'Was Hurin devoted to Thingol or just the elves in general, he didn't seem to think much of him since he didn't take part in the
Battle of Unnumbered Tears.'

Lhinnthel: 'So I would think both reasons have an impact on his choosing to foster Turin.'

Calycanthus: 'Oh, you're right Lhinn, I'd missed that.'

Lhinnthel: 'I highlighted that whole scene with marker.. hehe...It was so wonderful!'

Calycanthus: 'Hurin was particularly devoted to the king of Gondolin (who I think is Turgon), and to elves in general. I'm not sure that he and
Thingol ever met.'

Hollyberye: 'Although Grithnir stays behind with Turin, eventually dying, Gethron returns to Morwen with an escort, and a message from Melian bidding Morwen to come to Doriath. This Morwen refuses and it is characterized as the second sorrow of Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'The Helm of Hador, pictured on the cover of the novel, is given to Turin. Tolkien devotes the last two pages of the chapter discussing this Helm.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please discuss the implications of the Helm; Thingol’s treatment of the Helm as well as Turin’s.'

Calycanthus: 'Turin's treatment is notable in that he is much more focused on the relational aspects of what's happened to him than he cares
about the honor/etc of what the helm represents, or about the power of the helm.'

Malphos: 'Those inherited items play an important role over and over again in the stories. Just think of narsil. Not that they seem to have a
real power by themselves (like our gear in lotro).'

Calycanthus: 'Well, the helm had some power.'

Calycanthus: 'Thingol's treatment of the helm is, I think, an attempt to comfort Turin, not that it worked.'

Hollyberye: 'Why is a dragon carved on the top, does anyone know?'

Mithmenelien: 'It's interesting that Hurin didn't want to use the helm partly because of those powers'

Mornawen: 'Foreshadowing here again, like with the knife.'

Hollyberye: 'Ahhhh. thanks Mornawen.'

Malphos: 'Oh, what were those powers? I don't recall that.'

Byrcha: 'Aye. Strange that he wouldn't wear it to the biggest battle of the Age.'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed, Hurin said he'd rather foes looked on his "true face."'

Calycanthus: 'Well, the in-story explanation of the dragon is that it was made in defiance of the first dragon, who had just recently come forth at the time.'

Mornawen: 'It was crafted by the greatest Dwarf smith, and the dragon's name was Glaurung.

Malphos: 'Ancalagon, I think.'

Calycanthus: 'Re: the power: 'A power was in it that guarded any who wore it from wound or death...''

Lilikate: 'Another of Morgoth's pets?'

Calycanthus: 'Oh wait, not first dragon. In defiance of Glaurung. I think you're right that Ancalagon was first.'

Malphos: 'Well, could not have been Draigoch - that took cousin Malvy to get him down! :D'

Byrcha: 'Aye, Glaurung was who this helm was made for.'

Hollyberye: 'Thingol treats this helm like it is worth far more than anything else in his treasure troves.'

Calycanthus: 'On second thought, just looked it up. Glaurung *was* the first dragon, but Ancalagon was the 'greatest'.'

Hollyberye: 'Were the dragons independent of Morgoth or like Lili suggested, under his control?'

Calycanthus: 'Under his control.'

Hollyberye: 'Ahhh okay thanks.'

Malphos: 'he created them, or?'

Calycanthus: 'Very directly under his control. Created, controlled, directed.'

Malphos: 'Which is a bit of contradiction that he could not create living things, I thought.'

Calycanthus: 'Well, it may have been 'created' in the same way he 'created' orcs.'

Malphos: 'They seem not to be Maiar, like the Balrogs.'

Mornawen: 'They are warpings of earthworms.'

Malphos: '.. which then would mean they should be "lesser" beings?'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments or thoughts on Chapter IV: The Departure of Turin, before we move on to chapter five?'

Calycanthus: 'Actually, I tried to check the Silmarillion on dragons just now, and it appears that Tolkien doesn't specify where they came from. Just 'After 100 years Glaurung came forth'. No word on where he originated.'

Hollyberye: 'But was he defeated by someone wearing that helm?'

Calycanthus: 'He's still alive at the time of the story we're in.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay thanks!'

Byrcha: 'I hadn't thought about it, but the other creations of Morgoth were warped from other beings or Maiar.'

Malphos: 'We will meet him later in the story, if i remember right.'

Byrcha: 'Perhaps dragons are corrupted from eagles!'

(Participants discussed no need to feel pressured to get through three chapters today.))


Hollyberye: 'Chapter V: Turin in Doriath'

Hollyberye: 'I felt this chapter is the least archaic and most easily absorbed of our readings thus far.'

Hollyberye: 'Nine years Turin dwelt in the Halls of Menegroth (the Thousands’ Caves Hall of Thingol and Melian).'

Hollyberye: 'We are told that Melian watches over him, though he sees her seldom, and that the maiden Nellas, who lives only in the woods, is a
companion.'

Hollyberye: 'As they grow out of childhood, Turin sees her less often but, she too watches over him. Turin learns from Thingol’s messengers that his sister Nienor grows in beauty, a flower in the grey North, and that his mother Morwen’s plight is eased.'

Byrcha: 'Anyone know what Nellas' name means?'

Hollyberye: 'Mourning, they said in the chapter before'

Calycanthus: 'No, that's Nienor.'

Byrcha: 'Nellas also?'

Malphos: 'No, that was Nienor?'

Lhinnthel: 'Aye'

Hollyberye: 'OHHHH sorryyyyy !!!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I am wrong.'

Malphos: 'Too many similar names.'

Byrcha: 'Double foreshadowing 'if you didn't get the msg the first time, here it is again -- mourning!''

Hollyberye: 'hahha'

Hollyberye: 'someone look up Neilas '

Mornawen: '"nell" means "bell"'

Hollyberye: 'maybe like a bell flower'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is described as tall, even surpassing the height of the Elves and that his strength and hardihood is renowned.'

Hollyberye: 'Learned in lore, he becomes thoughtful and sparing in speech, although we have heard that before. It seems that fortune is
unfriendly to him.'

Malphos: 'or like ringing a message, what she does in this chapter'

Byrcha: '...and he was still a teenager, no?'

Hollyberye: 'that crossed my mind as soon as I typed my message'

Calycanthus: 'Nel- is three. Flower would be 'wing'.'

Hollyberye: '18 yes'

Malphos: 'yes, Byrcha'

Malphos: 'oh nice, thx Caly!'

Mornawen: 'And impusive, socially awkward, like a teenager, with too much expected of him.'

Mithmenelien: 'Nella seems to meen the sound of bells.'

Malphos: 'now I know why cousin Mellawing got that name :)'

Rozalinde: 'Exactly, Molly'

Hollyberye: 'Q. The narrative describes that what he designs goes awry, what he desires he does not gain, friendships come with difficulty, he is not merry, and a shadow is cast on his youth. Do you believe that these misfortunes are driven by the curse or by Turin’s own character?'

Byrcha: 'Sounds like the curse, but Turin seemed a bit dark even before

Hurin left for the battle.'

Malphos: 'Again as we said last time, the curse fell on well-prepared soil.'

Mornawen: 'A different kind of person might have handled things differently.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, well-prepared soil is a perfect way to put it.'

Calycanthus: '((Whoops, 'loth' is flower. 'Wing' is foam. Sorry about that.))'

Mornawen: 'He's supposed to grow into a man like his father, all this pressure, but it doesn't come naturally to him.

Lhinnthel: 'I found this: Though I'm not srue: nell N. [nˈɛl̡l] n. bell ◇ Ety/379nella- N. [nˈɛl̡lɑ] v. to sound (of bells) ◇ Ety/379, VT/46:7'

Lhinnthel: 'Ibelieve Mith said that earlier!'

Byrcha: '(Mostly I was curious about her name, since there is much foreshadowing and Tolkien was a linguist, and her character has an interesting role)'

Calycanthus: 'That meaning would make sense. I was looking at the older etymology I have, and the only thing I could find starting with 'nel' was that 'three' meaning.'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments on the misfortunes and what drove them in

Turin at this point in the narrative?'

Lhinnthel: 'Ah, and here:'

Lhinnthel: 'http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Nellas'

Hollyberye: 'Thanks, Lhinn!'

Lhinnthel: 'But I found the earlier paste here: http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sindar/online/sindar/dict-sd-en.html'

Mithmenelien: 'in the coming judgment Nellas comes in like sounding bells to save the day ;)'

Lhinnthel: 'I do love lookign up word meanings :)'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'Very good !'

Rozalinde: 'After Turin had "outgrown" her, and didn't spend much time with her anymore. *sniffle*'

Lhinnthel: ''

Malphos: 'a road not taken'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I have a discussion point on that in chapter six'

Rozalinde: 'That made me very sad.'

Lilikate: 'I think this was his first wrong doing, she was a friend he abandoned .'

Hollyberye: 'and he is so inwardly focused....'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't understand how he can not remember her, that's so sad!'

Rozalinde: 'She seemed to embody so much innocence and goodness, that I think it was very poignant that he drifted from her.'

Hollyberye: 'Jealousy rears its head in the form of Saeros, a proud and haughty counsellor of the king. He is not fond of the “unhappy” race of
men and did not like Beren and begrudges the favor Turin receives.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why does Saeros think so poorly of Beren One-hand (and his kinsman)?'

Lilikate: 'Is it because he is a snob?'

Byrcha: 'Saeros also seems like fertile soil here'

Calycanthus: 'Isn't Saeros the one who was originally slotted to marry Luthien?'

Mornawen: 'Heh, yes Byrcha.'

Malphos: 'That is one part, i think, Lili'

Lhinnthel: '((I have been listening to the book from that link you shared Lilikate and the voiceover for Saeros made me think him a snob!)'

Calycanthus: 'Or wanted to, at any rate. Let me check.'

Hollyberye: 'Elven snobbery can be terrible--luckily most elves are not that way'

Malphos: 'Especially those present here :)'

Lilikate: 'His disdain is aparent, and I am unclear of a real motive.'

Hollyberye: 'resentful!!!'

Lilikate: 'because of the evil the men had bought on elves before?'

Hollyberye: 'He really resents a mere mortal in such favor with his King'

Hollyberye: 'that could be. I also think that'

Calycanthus: 'On, nope, the one who want to marry Luthien was Daeron. Too many similar names...'

Hollyberye: 'JEALOUSY is a profound theme (remember we were going to bring up themes regularly)'

Byrcha: 'But what evil had Men brought on Elves -- the Elves were behind the whole Silmaril debacle.'

Rozalinde: 'I think there's some simply "I'm better than you" attitude too. Young scruffy upstart vs. elegant wise elf?'

Malphos: 'I dont think it is a real course of reason here, it is just he is that type of person. proud of what he is, seeing men as below elves'

Calycanthus: 'I think it might also be just a plain form of racism. Humans are other, and therefore lessor, and therefore hated.'

Hollyberye: 'Just my personal opinion, but jealousy is the most difficult emotion and most trouble-making in the world'

Malphos: 'and proud'

Rozalinde: 'I think it's Pride. Pride is the downfall of many people and the cause of much sorrow in this story.'

Mornawen: 'The sin that Elves seem most susceptible to is pride, I think, and some people maintain pride by putting others down.'

Lilikate: 'Lots of Pride in this tale'

Hollyberye: 'yes, Saeros' pride is out of hand'

Malphos: 'pride, yes, thanks'

Rozalinde: 'JINX'

Lhinnthel: 'OH yes, so much pride and stubborness!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, so much--Morwen's, Turin's, Saeros''

Calycanthus: 'Yes, Pride is definitely a theme.'

Hollyberye: 'It certainly is!'

Mornawen: 'And the jealousy that comes from fear.'

Hollyberye: 'Why does Saeros dislike Beren so much?'

Mithmenelien: 'And in all, pride brings downfall.'

Calycanthus: 'My guess would be that he sees all men as inherently inferior, and thus resents Beren for taking away 'she whom the elves
loved most'.'

Malphos: 'Isn't he pictured a bit single-dimensional?'

Hollyberye: 'That makes sense to me, Calycanthus.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--he is--but effectively. Tolkien uses him as a powerful plot device.'

Malphos: 'But only as that, single-use device ^^ so no need to develop further.'

Malphos: '.. a bit sarcastic way to put it, sorry.'

Calycanthus: 'In all honesty, a lot of Tolkien's characters are quite flat, and used mainly as plot devices.'

Malphos: 'thats what I meant, Caly.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--I do agree with that.'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe he sees it as by meeting Beren, Luthien choose to die, so to Saeros Beren might as well have killed her.'

Mornawen: 'Hm, yes. At this time, were they living in Ossiriand? I'm muddled on the timeline.'

Malphos: 'Which time? the youth of Turin?'

Byrcha: 'This is not long after Beren/Luthien, surely fresh in Saeros' memory.'

Mornawen: 'Yes. Were Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand?'

Calycanthus: 'Yes.'

Byrcha: 'Oh, sorry.'

Calycanthus: 'This is chronologically shortly after the story of Beren and Luthien.'

Mornawen: 'All right, and Dior their son hasn't come to Thingol yet.'

Malphos: 'Short because men are involved. we are talking about things happening in human livespan.'

Calycanthus: 'Beren and Luthien Battle of Unnumbered Tears Turin'

Hollyberye: 'Turin turns 17 and grows heavier of heart as word no longer reaches him of Morwen and his sister. He approaches Thingol with the
request for mail, sword and shield to reclaim the dragon-helm of his sire.'

Hollyberye: 'Thingol is struck, seeing Turin as a man for the first time. It is agreed that Turin will train and test his strength with the Elf-warriors on the north-marches, where they wage unceasing war on the orcs and other servants of Morgoth.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. During this time, Turin receives many wounds, but “his doom delivers him from death.” Do you believe that means the curse is
sparing him for worse, or something altogether different?'

Byrcha: 'He is wearing the Helm, of course.'

Hollyberye: 'Is he? I wasn't certain.'

Lilikate: 'Apart from it being an obvious plot device.'

Hollyberye: 'But that would make sense.'

Lilikate: 'To me it did mean just that, his curse, or fate kept him from dying in those early battles or skirmishes.'

Malphos: 'He wears it, it is indicated that he "puts on his helm and joins the elven warriors."'

Hollyberye: 'Okay.'

Byrcha: 'It does say he put on the helm and went off to those battles on the north marches.'

Hollyberye: 'So the helm is protecting him...but that relates to how the fate/doom is saving him for worse.'

Mithmenelien: 'I read it as meaning that then Morgoth got word of the man in the Dragon Helm; he instructed his people to not kill him so that
Turin can live and suffer more.'

Mornawen: 'That seems just poetic narration... oh, Mith, hm.'

Malphos: '...and the story's necessity to keep him alive until later ;)'

Hollyberye: 'well there is that '

Malphos: 'I agree with Mornawen.'

Calycanthus: 'Well, I think the wounds were received before the rumor went out.'

Mornawen: 'But Beleg would be watching out for him, and the others, as he's so young.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin fights alongside Beleg Strongbow, described as the only one even mightier.'

Lilikate: 'Could it also mean, wearing the Helm means folk can't see his pointy ears and don't know he isn't an elf :)'

Lhinnthel: 'Emphasis is put on his skill with the sword several times as well -- he was trained well, too!'

Hollyberye: 'At the end of three years, an ill-kempt Turin takes a seat in Thingol’s Hall, the accustomed seat of Saeros, which sparks a series
of events driven by jealousy and dislike.'

Lilikate: 'I noted some time it was mentioned he was stronger then the elves and just as agile.'

Calycanthus: 'Possibly, Lili, but the speculation was that Hurin had escaped, so they probably assumed only someone from the line of Hurin
would dare wear that helm.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Lili.'

Malphos: 'Isn't it that the mightiest warriors with the sword were always men?'

Lilikate: 'I know, I was joshing with you all!'

Malphos: 'there is the spear of gil-galad,'

Malphos: 'and the bow of bered'

Calycanthus: 'Finrod's sword. Lamed Morgoth himself.'

Malphos: 'But it is the sword of Turin, and much later Narsil, and more.'

Malphos: 'Okay, Caly.'

Hollyberye: 'Saeros mocks Turin, and Turin knows the bitterness of exile. Saeros takes serious offense at everything Turin says and doesn’t say.'

Hollyberye: 'Saeros refers to the women of Turin’s kind as running like the deer, only clad in hair.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin strikes Saeros with a drinking vessel and would have slain him with his sword but is stopped.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin leaves the hall, and Saeros is scolded to “take heed…least you do the will of Morgoth in your pride, and remember that you are of the Eldar.”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any comments on the first part of this pivotal conflict between Saeros and Turin?'

Byrcha: 'Saeros didn't take that advice to heart.'

Hollyberye: 'No he certianly did not.'

Malphos: 'No, he works against Turin like worm-tongue.'

Hollyberye: 'Although he certainly took pride in being an Eldar.'

Rozalinde: 'Turin is acting very much like a sullen teenager. Lashes out, and then drifts away to sulk.'

Hollyberye: 'But perhaps had a twisted view.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Turin's least likeable trait for me is how self-absorbed he is.'

Lilikate: 'Saeros seems very missplaced as a character among Thingol's people.'

Mornawen: 'It was just a nasty remark.'

Hollyberye: '...and yet he was a chief counsellor of the King.'

Malphos: 'Right Lili!'

Byrcha: 'Aye, Saeros is a pompous ass.'

Byrcha: 'Doesn't fit the image of the High Elves at all'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, I was wondering, how come Melian, the Maia, had not sensed what kind of person Saeros truly was?'

Calycanthus: 'Turin perhaps could have been more sensitive to the cultures of the time, but Saeros is the one who went around assuming
insult at every turn, making things personal when they weren't, and then is deliberately insulting.'

Hollyberye: 'Good point.'

Byrcha: 'Good point. She saw through Turin and said his legacy would be less than Berens'.'

Mornawen: 'Maybe Saeros had served Thingol well, and there was a debt of gratitude.'

Byrcha: 'Presumably so, though Thingol doesn't always make the best decisions ...'

Mornawen: 'Thingol has almost as much pride as Feanor did.'

Lilikate: 'You can't talk smack about a person's mother, havn't you been to public school?'

Hollyberye: ':D'

Hollyberye: 'Saeros nurses his injury through the night, his malice growing. He waylays Turin in the early morning with a drawn sword and
shield.'

Hollyberye: 'But Turin is as agile and sharp-witted as any elf, and stronger.'

Hollyberye: 'He soon bests Saeros and causes him to undress like a deer clad only in hair, which Turin had taken to be an aspersion on his
mother.'

Hollyberye: 'He forces Saeros to run naked, as a mocker of women, with his sword ever closing in on Saeros’ buttocks. The chase is joined by
others.'

Hollyberye: 'Saeros reaches a deep cleft in the rocks and attempts a leap, but falls to the stones below, thus dying.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Mablung claims this is Orc-work, Turin replies it is only Orc-play…when Turin views the dead body he says that he, Saeros, “has
laid a guilt upon me undeserved.” How do you interpret Turin’s view of the matter?'

Rozalinde: 'and by dying, he ruins what was otherwise a very pleasing display of comeuppance (at least to me).'

Lilikate: 'I don't know I found that whole death scene overly contrived.'

Byrcha: 'Good point, Roz -- his death serves the curse better, and it was through Saeros' choice.'

Calycanthus: 'In the earlier version Turin kills him outright with that thrown goblet.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh really?'

Lilikate: 'Some shot!'

Malphos: 'Oh interesting, Caly!'

Hollyberye: 'But Tolkien did chose to revise it.'

Lhinnthel: 'I think it showed Turin's immaturity, no matter what battles he has been through fighting orcs'

Rozalinde: 'Agreed, Lhinn'

Lhinnthel: 'His stement that he laid an undeserved guilt just made me think of a rebellious teenager.'

Rozalinde: 'Turin reminds me of a sullen rebellious teenager all the time.'

Byrcha: 'Agreed. But how should he have responded to an insult to his mother/sisters?'

Hollyberye: 'Turin's protective sense of his mother is profound.'

Byrcha: '... Big strong swordsman -- eh, I'll let it go this time.'

Lilikate: 'But it is indispersed with the narrator telling us, how he was about to stop, or that he wouldn't have made him leap etc..'

Malphos: 'Between warriors as they are, calling to a duel?'

Hollyberye: 'And he sees every insult to women as an insult to his mother I feel.'

Byrcha: 'To Morwen, not his mother (he never calls her this, unless I missed it).'

Hollyberye: 'Correct, yes.'

Lilikate: 'Didn't he call her Morwen at the parting?'

Calycanthus: 'I think Turin feels the guilt is undeserved because he didn't intend to kill Saeros.'

Hollyberye: 'yes'

Byrcha: 'An odd frame of reference, methinks.'

Lhinnthel: 'I agree Caly, just something about the way he said it, along with his age, made me think of the imaturity.'

Lilikate: 'But he does not take on any remorse for the part he played.'

Mornawen: 'I think the insult was the last straw, after perhaps years of snide remarks by Saeros.'

Corvelian: 'I agree w/that Caly.'

Byrcha: 'True, he had reacted with silence for years.'

Lhinnthel: 'He doesn't think through his actions, then when he does

indeed act -- he doesn't like the outcome.'

Lhinnthel: 'Very much like what he said in an earlier chapter as a youth.'

Rozalinde: 'Indeed, Lhinn.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Lhinn.'

Calycanthus: 'Oh, I'm not disagreeing about his maturity levels--that's an issue he has a long way to go on.'

Lhinnthel: 'I don' mind if you disagree at all, I am only trying to explain why I fel tthat way :D'

Calycanthus: 'But I do think he has at least a bit of a point in that he wasn't trying to kill Saeros--despite the fact that Saeros had *actually* tried to kill him.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Tolkien wants to absolve Turin for the death.'

Malphos: 'Somehow the complete event is strange.'

Malphos: '--that Saeros confronted Turin with drawn sword.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, that was odd.'

Hollyberye: 'I think Saeros wanted Turin GONE, banished or dead.'

Malphos: 'Couldnt he see that the mighty Turin would best him, guaranteed?'

Byrcha: 'How is that strange? He clearly wanted to do him in.'

Byrcha: 'And clearly was too arrogant to think Turin would defeat him.'

Hollyberye: 'No, he was so arrogant.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin refuses to return to the King’s hall for judgment on the morning’s misadventure and leaves. When Thingol listens to what
happened in his seat of judgment and declares his doom is to banish Turin from Doriath.'

Hollyberye: 'However, Beleg enters with the maiden Nellas as a witness. It takes her a while to get to the point, frightened as she is of the
Hall and with her side comments about contemplating Luthien and Beren.'

Hollyberye: 'However, she is able to bear witness that Saeros instigated the events that led to his death. Thingol pardons Turin, holding him
wronged and provoked.'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg and Thingol, who both love Turin, determine that Beleg shall go in search of Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg choses a sword of worth, Anglachel. It was made of iron that fell from heaven as a blazing star, capable of cleaving all
earth-dolven iron.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Although a very minor character, Tolkien paints a striking picture of Nellas. Are you able to picture her clearly? What do
you think of Nellas and how she exists with the other elves?'

Mithmenelien: 'I like Nellas, she is like a spirit of the forest!'

Lilikate: 'I think I like to look at it with a wider view of how he writes his lady characters.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, please explain Lili.'

Lilikate: 'Nellas is Nymph like, with innocent qualities.'

Lhinnthel: 'I do too, Mith! She seems a lovely wood elf!'

Hollyberye: 'She is very foofy '

Byrcha: 'Aye, she is -- an outsider among Elves (Elves who don't live in the forest as much as she does).'

Malphos: 'Good picture, nymph!'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'She is very afraid of the the Hall, of the walls and ceiling.'

Lilikate: 'I try and see the best in Tolkien, he can write excellent descriptions for his male characters, but for the ladies he really falls
short.'

Hollyberye: 'and THAT is precisely why I welcomed Peter Jackson's interpretations--he made the women breathe life.'

Lilikate: 'Oh noo. I think PJ went too far.'

Hollyberye: 'He did go way to far in places, but I loved what he did for the women.'

Lhinnthel: 'I wish to know more of her story.. is there any more?'

Malphos: 'They never play the main part, even Luthien, Arwen, .. only exception in some kind is Melian, but she is a demi-god (maiar).'

Byrcha: 'Luthien had a huge role.'

Hollyberye: 'But Melian isn't given much print time.'

Calycanthus: 'Tolkien had a very... idealized... view of women. And it shows in his writing.'

Lilikate: 'But even their characters are very two dimensional.'

Mornawen: 'Luthien did more than Beren to get the Silmaril, but neither one had much character development.'

Byrcha: 'Agreed. But she is one of the few who actually uses sorcery of any kind.'

Byrcha: '--any direct kind.'

Lilikate: 'Dosn't she go, following Beren?'

Malphos: '--her song, to distract even Melkor.'

Calycanthus: 'I think that may be partly because she's half-Maia? Her powers are greater than most elves, I think.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, she rescues him, Lili, from the dungeons of Sauron?'

Byrcha: 'Ah, good point Caly.'

Malphos: 'Thangorodrim, dungeons of Melkor.'

Mornawen: 'No, I mean with wolves, and Finrod.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, rescued from Sauron's dungeons'

Lilikate: 'Yep the theme of following a man and not deciding to combat evil is kinda in the same bracket. Better than Rosie Cotton but not by
much.'

Calycanthus: 'Yes, out of all of Tolkien's women, Luthien is the most developed and plays the biggest role. She still fits his image of the
idealized woman, though, devoted to the man she loves and pure at heart.'

Mornawen: 'Aredhel is kind of an interesting one... but that's way off topic. :)'

Hollyberye: 'Melian proclaims, however, that “there is malice in this sword (Anglachel, given to Beleg)…the heart of the smith still swells in
it, and that heart was dark…it will not love the hand that it serves…or abide with you long.” Beleg sets forth in search of Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What an evocative description that is of the sword Anglachel! Thought, comments on this sword and others devised by Tolkien’s intricate and creative mind?'

Rozalinde: 'You really can't beat a sword made out of meteorite. That's just awesomesauce.'

Lilikate: 'And he still uses it?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, he does!'

Malphos: 'It makes it an acting thing by itself'.

Hollyberye: 'I would have heeded her warning.'

Byrcha: 'Well, if it is evil, why do they keep it around in the first place?'

Lilikate: 'That baffled me! I'd rather not have a sword that a Queen Elf told me would be troublesome.'

Hollyberye: 'I'm with you on that.'

Calycanthus: 'Actually, I've read that in real life, meteorite steel is actually weaker than most other types of steel. :p'

Mornawen: 'This idea that the spirit of the creator imbues the objects...'

Rozalinde: 'But it's made out of meteorite! Surely I'm not the only one who thinks that the awesomeness of that outweighs any silly things like
forebodings, right? '

Hollyberye: 'But I really loved the writing there'

Hollyberye: 'I see your side of it Roz, believe me!!'

Byrcha: 'Aye, like its a gift from Elbereth'

Calycanthus: 'Maybe they kept it because it was considered valuable, but they had no original intention of using it? After all, it's only
problematic if it's used...'

Malphos: 'But could you spoil anything sent by Varda?'

Lilikate: 'Or because it was super sharp?'

Lilikate: 'They did mention cutting Orc Armour.'

Hollyberye: 'It fell from heaven as a blazing star! Irrestible.'

Rozalinde: '^^^^'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any additional comments on this chapter, Turin in Doriath?'

Mithmenelien: 'The evil in the sword might make it easier for Morgoth to make the sword do evil to.'

Malphos: 'hmm...I dont think the sword was actually called evil'

Lilikate: 'I bet Morgoth has done nothing at all!'

Malphos: 'Not in the sense of Morgoth.'

Lilikate: 'And is laughing his socks off.'

Calycanthus: 'Oh, right. Steel (from the meteorite) beats iron (orc armor), but if you were to compare it to other types of steel, it's
weaker.'

Byrcha: 'There was malice in the sword, its heart was dark -- pretty much evil '

Hollyberye: 'Beleg says, Nonetheless I will weild it while I may.'

Malphos: 'Right, Byrcha, but the difference in wording is interesting.'

Lilikate: 'Sword have a heart... Next trees will be walking!'

Malphos: ' Lili!'

Hollyberye: 'Also only one other sword in Middle earth was like it!!!'

Byrcha: 'How is it that Beleg doesn't have a quality sword before now?'

Lilikate: 'He used a Bow.'

Lhinnthel: 'I also wondered that, Byrcha!'

Hollyberye: 'Well maybe he relied more on his bow up this point.'

Calycanthus: 'I'm not sure that the sword itself can be evil--I don't think Tolkien would have given it that much autonomy.'

Lilikate: 'But the Orcs were getting denser.'

Hollyberye: 'He was a renowned woodsman. I think of him as a hunter with a bow.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh-also--wonderful illustration in the book at this point. I *think* it is Beleg taking his leave.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, I am thinking that it might be Beleg, since there is something sticking up by his shoulders that might be arrows and Beleg was a bowman.'

Lhinnthel: 'Hmm, I suppose I am jaded by being able to wield a bow, dagger and sword XD.'

Hollyberye: 'hehe'

Byrcha: 'Well, Legolas had knives, too.'

Calycanthus: 'He says that he'd relied on his bow previously, but there were getting to be too many orcs now, and his existing sword was no match for orc armor.'

Lilikate: 'Hehe I wield a dagger, a club, and a Bow!'

Lhinnthel: 'Ah!'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg got to choose and chose the special sword of great fame...so even he had his weakness.'

Byrcha: 'cursecursecurse'

Hollyberye: 'despite hearing the warning from his Queen...triple curses!'

Malphos: 'as a soldier in the king's service he got standard equipment.'

Malphos: 'and now, on a special mission, special equipment.'

Lhinnthel: 'Good point!'

Hollyberye: 'They are really counting on him to bring Turin back and face grave dangers in the process.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay our "time" is up and we only got through two chapters.'

Lilikate: 'Good I can review the next again!'

Lhinnthel: 'ANd we started early and ended late! Wooo!'

Byrcha: 'True, but this was plenty, and fun.'

Lhinnthel: 'hehe'

Hollyberye: 'I have the next chapter prepared so wonder if you want to try to meet next week at the same time?'

Lhinnthel: 'It went by so quickly again!'

Hollyberye: 'I loved this last chapter, Five.'

Rozalinde: 'This worked great, cause I didn't have time to read Chapter 6. >.>'

Rozalinde: 'It's like you planned this on my behalf.'

Hollyberye: 'I did Roz '

Malphos: 'What do the schedules say for next week?'

Lhinnthel: 'I rush read it, but now I will reread it while listening to the audio!'

Hollyberye: 'I skimmed more on six's prep as I could tell I had too much material--so can revisit that.'

Mornawen: 'I'm away next week, visiting Oklahoma!'

Byrcha: 'Next week is fine, two weeks from now is no-go (SRC).'

Hollyberye: 'That's why I was thinking, go ahead....'

Lilikate: 'Yep next week!'

Lhinnthel: 'Next week we have tour music and a race.'

Hollyberye: 'If you like I can prepare seven as well.'

Lilikate: 'Two chapters though.'

Lilikate: 'I don't realise how much is stuffed into each.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes but the tour is no different than the time we spent on rehearsal today, just more polished, etc.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, two chapters.'

Hollyberye: 'So I could plan on chapters 6 & 7 next week at 4:45 server time?'

Malphos: 'Right, basically same schedule like today.'

Lilikate: 'Yep for SRC we are out at 4:30 at the very latest.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay then in May we will start earlier--some of our

Europeans could not come this late. Is that all okay?'

Malphos: 'Hey it is Saturday ^^'

Rozalinde: 'Sounds good to me :-)'

Malphos: 'yes'

Mornawen: 'Thank you all, this was wonderful, again!'

Byrcha: 'Yes, thank you all!'

Lhinnthel: 'Thank you!'

Hollyberye: 'I will get the chat log in the forum soon. I want to thank you all for the incredibly thoughtful comments.'

Rozalinde: 'Thank you all for being a better book club than my RL book club :-)'

Hollyberye: 'I am learning so much.'

Rozalinde: '*hugs everyone*'

Lilikate: 'I enjoyed this meet!'

Hollyberye: 'I admire how thoughtful you all are.'

Lilikate: 'It really opens my eyes to stuff I have forgotten or missed.'

Hollyberye: 'It is impressive.'

Byrcha: 'You sound surprised, Holly :P'

Hollyberye: 'no no!!! :D'

Mithmenelien: 'Thank you all for the intersting conversation! :D'

Lilikate: 'She is very happy! As she should be.'

Malphos: 'This is really new for me. Never did anything like that before. I really enjoy it! Thinking this through with others is a real different experience'

Hollyberye: 'I feel so unschooled in Tolkien as my emphasis has always been LOTR and the Hobbit.'

Lhinnthel: 'Hmm *stumbles off with a cup of wine in preperation for BBB* Is that more like it! LOL!'

Rozalinde: 'If anyone is interested, one of my kinnies is hosting a "Lore chat" on the "the great hobbit journey from their ancestral homeland
during the first part of the 3rd Age" here in 20 min or so. Friends are welcome.'

Rozalinde: 'I'm sure working my brain today...'

Hollyberye: 'I promised my own hobbit lad to go out for dinner when this is over :D'

Rozalinde: 'Yay, dinner!'

Hollyberye: 'Okay thanks so very much everyone!!!'

Calycanthus: 'Yes, thank you everyone!'

NEXT SESSION:

Saturday, 18 April 2015
4:45 PM Server Time, following the Bounders' Cup Race
Bird and Baby Inn, Michel Delving
/lmbbookclub

All are welcome! It is absolutely okay to make a mistake or not know something, which is why I left some of that in, including my own
mistakes.

[Elimraen]

Thanks for posting the chat Holly. I really enjoyed reading through all of your discussion. And I should be able to make it this Saturday, yay :)

Here are the couple of other thoughts that I had on these two chapters. I don't have my book with me so can't look up references just now. I could come back and edit later if I remember to find them!

First, how much knowledge of Morgoth's curse did Melian have (and how did she get it), and how much power to counter it? It says somewhere that she is trying to undo it, or work against it, or something.

Someone (Thingol?) thought that Turin had his father's eyes (in The Departure of Turin chapter). Is this supposed to have a double-meaning, do you think? So, Turin's eyes physically look like Hurin's, but I was wondering if it meant something in relation to the curse, which has affected Hurin's eyes/vision - maybe somehow the curse is affecting Turin's perception too?

(And I didn't say thanks before for the birthday wishes, Mith. So thanks! :D)

[Hollyberye]

Greetings,

The next meeting of the LMB Book Club will be Saturday, May 9th at 4PM server time, in the chat channel /lmbbookclub and at the Bird and Baby Inn in Michel Delving. We will be discussing chapters eight and nine of 'The Children of Hurin' by J.R.R. Tolkien.

I know we discussed doing this on May 2nd, but in my enthusiasm of the moment I forgot my halfling's spring musical that weekend.

Newcomers are welcome! Even if you have not read the material you can listen in and might find yourself with something to contribute.

Thanks so much,

Hollyberye

P.S. I will post the chat log from session three soon...

[Hollyberye]

Children of Hurin Session 3, 18 April 2016
Chapter VI: Turin Among the Outlaws and Chapter VII: Of Mim the Dwarf

Participants: Hollyberye, Lilikate, Malphos, Byrcha, Lhinnthel, Mithmenelien, Lauralda, Elimraen with Esme Burrows and her ardent gift giving fans nearby


Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate. We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to continue discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien.'

Mithmenelien: 'Hello! :)'

Hollyberye: 'All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions. We will not be capturing text in other channels or /say and possibly not emotes (unless irresistibly amusing or germane to the meeting). We may have participants in the channel who are not in the Bird and Baby Inn. Hello!!'

Lilikate: 'Hello!'

Hollyberye: 'Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub.'

Lauralda: 'hello hello!'

Hollyberye: 'As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points. However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly.'

Malphos: 'Hello all!'

Hollyberye: 'Welcome!!!'

Hollyberye: 'In this, our third session, we will cover chapters six and seven.'

Hollyberye: 'Chapter VI: Turin Among the Outlaws'

Hollyberye: 'Believing he is an outlaw, Turin takes up with a band of feared men—known as Gaurwaith or Wolf-folk, described as not much better than orcs. After they waylay him and it appears his minutes are numbered, he stoops to get a stone, someone’s arrow misses him, and he breaks the man’s skull with the stone.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turin seems to be cut in the same cloth as Hurin, in terms of being fearless…yet for different reasons… how do the motives driving their fearlessness differ?'

Elimraen: 'Hurin's seems to come more from faith or a generally more optimistic outlook, Turin's feels more like a 'nothing to lose' type recklessness to me.'

Malphos: 'At that point he seems to be of little perspective, nothing to loose. so nothing to fear. I think that may at this point be a main "driver", or just a non-driver.'

Lilikate: 'Starting with a tough one, eh?'

Hollyberye: '...and starting with a bit of gore/violence.'

Lilikate: 'I thought he was rather despondent, too.'

Hollyberye: 'You mean his despondency helps make him reckless?'

Lilikate: 'He just doesn't really care much about anything at this point. He seems nostalgic for his days fighting with the Elves.'

Hollyberye: 'We saw Hurin being so fearless before he was captured and even after--seemed more out of devotion to the cause of the Elves and the cause of Right to me. Turin is just as fearless but, yes, I do think for different reasons.'

Hollyberye: 'The outlaw leader Androg says he is no match for Turin and permits Turin to join them. He establishes himself as strong, valiant, skilled, not greedy, but subject to sudden angers.'

Lilikate: 'I don't think he is physically reckless but his decisions are changed by his feelings of not belonging. Or having nowhere to go..'

Hollyberye: 'I see what you mean, Lilikate.'

Malphos: 'Sometimes he seems to have lost anything 'Right', but at moments it shines again.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!'

Lilikate: 'That Esme Burrows is getting a rather lot of gifts!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I forgot she would be here....'

Elimraen: 'Hehe!'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turin declares his name is Neithan the Wronged. Any comments on the name he gives himself?'

Lilikate: 'A little self-pity party?'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I hadn't thought of it in that way--yes. He doesn't just want to be incognito. He is mayhap taking pride in declaring "I

am a nobody." Which we know is not true, he is proud of what he is Heir of.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, the name has meaning. Not like he chose 'Fred' or something no one would notice.'

Elimraen: 'That's true, calling himself that probably did make people wonder/think more about him.'

Lilikate: 'If your incognito don't you just call yourself John Smith?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--more of this debilitating pride shining through, in part.'

Byrcha: 'But who is the audience -- the outlaws might not know or care.'

Hollyberye: 'That made me think he was just hiding (at first)--he didn't want to be found.'

Malphos: 'For them it is a reason he wants to join them, something they may understand somehow.'

Hollyberye: 'But I do think there is more to it than that. Yes--outlaws by their very nature, outside of the law, so identity hidden. Seems like a multi-layered reasoning behind the name.'

Mithmenelien: 'That name is also one of the reasons Beleg found him, it screams out who he is to those who know him ;)'

Lilikate: 'Maybe it's plot crumbs for the Elf?'

Hollyberye: 'Good point -- I have seen that kind of behavior in real life.'

Hollyberye: 'One day he comes upon two of the men chasing a woman, intent upon rape, and he kills one and he sends the woman back to her homestead unscathed. Turin then demands to be made captain of the band. He is accepted, with some reluctance, and leads the men away.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What influences Turin to behave in such a nobler way, despite his otherwise lawless ways?'

Lilikate: 'I thought more noble was his refusing to kill Androg and go back with the woman.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that was pure instinct, he acted without thinking at first.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, an odd twist in a way -- otherwise, they rob/steal along the way as outlaws, no?'

Malphos: 'A momentous decision, driven by his upbringing. He may live wild currently, but he is no savage. not in that way.'

Lilikate: 'I think it's pointed out he dosn't mind the robbing but he doesn't like seeing the weak hurt..'

Hollyberye: 'And he has the deep deep devotion for Morwen, his mother, his silent mother.'

Lhinnthel: 'Perhaps from his childhood friendship with the lame servant--regarding not liking seeing the weak harmed.'

Hollyberye: 'I feel he has powerful instincts to protect women because of his relationship with her.'

Elimraen: 'Yes he had an awful lot of good influences growing up despite the hardships.'

Elimraen: 'Well, maybe not a lot, but they were very strong.'

Hollyberye: 'It seems what lessons came home were ingrained, some good, some not so good (like the intense pride). I'm just speculating.'

Mithmenelien: 'Before this he had suppressed who he is, then living with the outlaws in a way and those sudden burst of anger that the outlaws didn't understand earlier are probably when Turin's sense of what is right shined through.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes! Over and over he changes his temperament and gets disgusted with himself.'

Hollyberye: 'Meanwhile, the elf Beleg continues to seek Turin, and learns of a man fitting his description from the father of the woman who was rescued. Beleg has trouble finding Turin, crying “too well did I teach this child of Men craft in wood and field.” Turin scouts and evades orcs, while Beleg finally finds the wicked band of outlaws.'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg is tied to a tree without food or water for two days, and is about to be killed when Turin returns to their cave hiding place. As Turin releases and tends his old friend, he grows very bitter over his behavior and that of his band. “Lawless and fruitless all our deeds have been, serving only ourselves and feeding hate in our hearts.”'

Lilikate: 'Now he gets all moral :)'

Hollyberye: 'Yes indeed'

Hollyberye: 'Turin proclaims his hand shall not again be raised against men or elves. “Angband has servants enough. If others will not take this vow with me, I will walk alone.” Beleg interjects that Turin is no outlaw, that he was pardoned, and the Dragon-helm is missed.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why do these words cause a shadow to fall upon Turin again? (and any other comment on the above summary)'

Lilikate: 'I think he is reminded how, in the eyes of some, Men are not seen to be as good as Elves.'

Lilikate: 'Takes him back to the snobbery he was subjected to, as well as injustice.'

Malphos: 'Because maybe the indication that a pardon was needed, that he is dependent on the good will of someone else?'

Malphos: 'Good point Lili'

Byrcha: 'Aye, he chafes that others judge him, even in good faith.'

Hollyberye: 'In addition to those two points, I think there is a sense of "you can't go home again."'

Elimraen: 'And he's reminded of how far he's fallen too - maybe he's ashamed? (Or maybe I think too much of him :p)'

Lhinnthel: 'He obviously has been living as if he's a criminal--finding out he has been pardoned only seems to upset him all the more

-- now he cannot blame what has happened to him on just the *unfairness* of earlier events, since he chose to go off and live this outlaw life instead of facing his actions.'

Byrcha: 'Or is it a choice-point for the curse (which he is unaware of)? Go on or go back?'

Hollyberye: 'His pride keeps him from returning because of the way he left? maybe.'

Lilikate: 'I think he definitely feels shame at this point.'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed!'

Mithmenelien: 'Turin seems to have too much pride for his own good.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, it isn't clear about the intricate workings of the curse.'

Lilikate: 'I do feel that Turin is 20% Stubborn Toddler.'

Hollyberye: 'Agreed, Lilikate.'

Malphos: 'Hehe, speaks the mother.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin questions Beleg closely on Thingol’s judgment. Turin says that his man-heart is proud as it was then, and that he should be giving pardon, not receiving it. He adds, he “is a hard man by my fate.”'

Lilikate: 'I also think he is Jealous of Thingol.'

Mithmenelien: 'Also seeing the outlaws' behavior being turned so towards someone he know, makes their cruel nature more real for him.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--he loves Beleg...and can you elaborate on that

Lilikate? Very interesting.'

Byrcha: 'Well, what did he really expect (re Mith's point) -- they're 'outlaws'.'

Lilikate: 'I believe that he would like the power Thingol has and yet he doesn't have the skill to wield that type of power because he is too impetuous. Which drives him bonkers... equals tantrum.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, yes -- power and established in a place to wield it.'

Byrcha: 'He's also immature in a real sense -- he's still 18, 19?'

Elimraen: 'I think it's very interesting how aware he is of his pride but doesn't always seem able to fight it.'

Lauralda: 'Aye, echoes what Elimraen says.'

Lilikate: 'Like me and pie!'

Hollyberye: 'Haha, Lili, you and pie :D.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes between 18 and 21--I don't recall his age when he went away for three years to fight orcs.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What does Turin mean by that expression, a hard man by his fate?'

Elimraen: 'A victim of his circumstances :/'

Hollyberye: 'I think we are seeing here again his overwhelming, crippling pride.'

Elimraen: ''.'

Mithmenelien: 'That he has been harded by his fate.'

Lilikate: 'He also lacks empathy for others.'

Hollyberye: 'I think he USUALLY lacks empathy. Then surprises the reader by staying his hand.'

Lilikate: 'Could it be that he is so consumed by thoughts of his fate he doesn't see or do what another might?'

Elimraen: 'Possibly because he thinks he's got it worse?'

Lilikate: 'Wow I am honoured!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Elimraen--he does think that, I think.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin begs Beleg to stay with him and says he even loves his outlaw band in some way.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How could Turin not recall Nellas of the woods and wonder how he could have walked in the wood with an elf-friend?'

Mithmenelien: 'That is so odd!'

Hollyberye: 'This is the point in the text where Turin can't recall her! We touched on that last time.'

Byrcha: 'It's like he has disowned that part of himself.'

Hollyberye: 'It was unbelievable to me.'

Elimraen: 'Really strange.'

Lilikate: 'Yeah! Mayhap they had Elf berries of forgetfulness?'

Hollyberye: 'haha :)'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, I was shocked he didn't remember her!'

Hollyberye: 'Turin says a mist is over his childhood, excepting his father’s home. How could forget? Aragorn's time in Rivendell was always with him at the same age.'

Byrcha: 'Well, Aragorn turns out a bit nobler in the end.'

Lhinnthel: 'I think it goes to show how much he dwells within himself.'

Hollyberye: 'They were so close--they walked together and held hands.'

Lilikate: 'Like all the time!'

Mithmenelien: 'That could be it Lhinn.'

Hollyberye: 'He is terribly self-absorbed.'

Lilikate: 'Why didn't he return to his mother?'

Elimraen: 'Yes Lhinn - I think it must be showing where his mind is constantly.'

Lhinnthel: 'He must be!'

Byrcha: 'Reminds me though, how this story (written very early) has many parallels to LOTR -- a bit like a first draft at times.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Byrcha!!! Couldn't agree more.'

Lauralda: 'Yes indeed!'

Byrcha: 'Turin=outlaw, Strider=ranger.'

Malphos: 'Kind of the dark variant, no happy end.'

Lauralda: 'Also, the veil of forgetfulness could mean that there's also things he wished not to remember about his childhood.'

Hollyberye: 'Protected by the elves at the approximate same age range.'

Byrcha: 'Elf foster father!'

Lilikate: 'For me it's more of "When Rangers go wrong."'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Lilikate.'

Byrcha: 'Trip to visit dwarf-house (next chapter).'

Hollyberye: 'Yes :)'

Hollyberye: 'To me the childhood with Nellas although brief, was highly memorable.'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe it's some kind of coping mechanism, he was traumatized over what had happened and suppressed the good things and just kept his bitterness.'

Hollyberye: 'And only remembers his childhood home of his father's that he left at nine.'

Lilikate: 'I think it's rather shoddy to forget a beautiful Elf Maiden!'

Hollyberye: 'While I remember many things prior to nine, it is past that that I remember so much more. So do I, Lilikate.'

Byrcha: 'An oddly introspective/psychological theme it seems, overall.'

Hollyberye: 'Especially one who dwells in the trees.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes! She must have been lovely!'

Lilikate: 'And seems to like him! Maybe he was nicer at nine.'

Hollyberye: 'I can really picture her, the woodland elf epitome.'

Hollyberye: 'Also from the same section: Q. Why does Beleg say that he begins to think that Men and Elves should not meet or meddle?'

Malphos: 'That sounds really bitter. Like that he regrets having spent so much time searching for Turin.'

Lilikate: 'Their differences and lack of understanding seems to cause both lots of heartache.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think he says that because Turin doesn't remember Nellas, doesn't remember the goodness that has been close to his heart.'

Lilikate: 'To the Elves Turin must seem so ungrateful.'

Hollyberye: 'I think also Beleg is thinking, so much heartache and distress--would not have happened had Turin never been brought into the fold. I mean I think he is being empathetic to Turin. Beleg is much the nobler of the two I feel.'

Byrcha: 'Perhaps it is to highlight the difference between Elf-kind and Man-kind -- Elves recall all these stories/places/etc., because they have time to reflect, Men have little time (mortal) so must move on.'

Hollyberye: 'And Byrcha, Elves have so many more "gifts"'

Lilikate: 'Maybe it would have been better if he stayed with his mother as we discussed last week.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes. I guess the sorrows incurred are outweighing the good. He didn't become a thrall of the Easterlings...but he became an outlaw...'

Lilikate: 'He should have returned to Thingol and repented.'

Byrcha: 'One of those interesting choices: be a slave, or an outlaw.'

Hollyberye: 'Compared to all else ...'

Lilikate: 'I'd opt for outlaw.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, bad choices abound.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, as an outlaw he is relatively free.'

Hollyberye: 'I have to say I would opt for outlaw, too, I think...given such a terrible choice. At least he has his independence.'

Elimraen: 'At least he has more power over his own actions with them.'

Hollyberye: 'But life in Thingol's hall would have been best of all,

and he COULD have stayed/returned.'

Hollyberye: 'Malphos, the Hobbit Lass seated next to you is so attentive! Wish she were not so shy.'

Lilikate: 'She is a Fallohide, she's not shy!'

Hollyberye: 'Okay, ready for a fun bit of summary?'

Hollyberye: 'When Beleg eventually returns to Thingol and Melian, he is rewarded by the queen with a gift of great honor—lembas!'

Hollyberye: 'This waybread of the Elves is wrapped in leaves of silver, and the threads that bound it sealed at the knots with the Queen’s seal, a wafer of white wax shaped as a single flower of Telperion.'

Byrcha: 'At last, we're talkin bout food '

Hollyberye: 'Indeed'

Lilikate: 'Yum Biccies!'

Hollyberye: 'We learn that the keeping and the giving of this food belongs to the Queen alone. She says Beleg can use it to help himself and those he chooses.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why does the author indicate this shows great favor to Turin, rather than simply Beleg?'

Hollyberye: 'And any discussion on this first introduction of lembas!!! It seems like the first introduction in Middle Earth chronologically, in Tolkien's writings. Correct me if I am wrong.'

Lilikate: 'Queen made Lembas...'

Byrcha: 'Foreshadowing, no? We don't even know that Turin will end up with any.'

Lilikate: 'It'll be Elf Magic for sure :)'

Elimraen: 'She knows he'll go looking for Turin?'

Hollyberye: 'Well, yes, that is his mission.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, Melian must have known that Beleg would return to Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Maybe she thinks it will draw him back (Turin), this show of favour?'

Lilikate: 'Good point, I hadn't thought of that.'

Byrcha: 'Anyone recall if the Queen-gives-out-lembas bit is told again with Galadriel in FotR?'

Hollyberye: I guess he wrote the Elves gave them lembas--I didn't check that. Byrcha I thought of the connection right away.'

Malphos: 'I remember only the reaction of the hobbits - eating a complete one on first taste :)'

Hollyberye: 'She did supervise the gifts to the fellowship.'

Byrcha: 'It was when she was giving other special gifts, like the phial and the cloaks.'

Hollyberye: 'And later Samwise getting so thoroughly sick of it. I would guess this scene in Children of Hurin is a bit of a precursor to the Lord of the Rings scene perhaps. But hard to imagine the Lady Galadriel up to her elbows in flour, even Elf flour.'

Byrcha: 'Melian doesn't have a mirror, but has some sort of Sight similar to Galadriel.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes'

Lilikate: 'Bakin Lembas - A new song.'

Malphos: 'She does not need a tool, she is of higher power.'

Hollyberye: 'I'll get right on that Lilikate.'

Elimraen: 'To the tune of 'When I'm Cleaning Windows'!'

Hollyberye: 'hahah'

Byrcha: 'Only an elf could sing it -- and not to anyone else :P'

Hollyberye: 'I love the image of the queen's involvement in its preparation. Maybe just a magical touch...'

Malphos: 'The final blessing.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes.'

Elimraen: 'I suppose it's another reminder for Turin of Melian/Thingol's forgiveness again. They're always hoping to change his mind.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I believe that is spot on, Elimraen.'

Byrcha: 'Can't quite imagine Melian sending the kitchen-help scurrying away, so she can bake all by herself though.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. So far we have not been explicitly told that Turin is aware of the curse upon Hurin’s children—do you think he knows yet? Also, do you think Hurin is “watching” all this? If yes, why doesn't Tolkien give us glimpses of Hurin’s sight and thoughts?'

Lilikate: 'I don't think he knows, I think he regards him self just as suffering a bad fate.'

Mithmenelien: 'I don't think he know of the curse yet.'

Hollyberye: 'I don't think he knows explicitly either, which means he is really in control of his poor choices.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, I don't think he knows. And Hurin probably can see it all because that would be dreadful so Morgoth would put him through it.'

Byrcha: 'I don't think Turin is specifically aware of it, a bit like a Greek tragic hero.'

Hollyberye: 'But I do "imagine" Hurin watching him.'

Mithmenelien: 'His personality and mood really fits well with the curse.'

Malphos: 'Does he feel control? I think in the past parts he found that he is blocking himself, well aware of his pride and alike.'

Malphos: 'But I agree that he does not know or see anything outside of himself influencing or causing that.'

Lilikate: 'I think he is only that aware at some times, he really does live in the moment and follows his feelings at that time.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that he feels that his fate is some thing just happening to him, not something that he is controlling himself.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes! That's how I have felt as well!'

Lauralda: 'Also the feeling that he wants to be *in* control (?pride), but is realizing that's not possible.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments on chapter six, Turin Among the Outlaws?'

Hollyberye: '(Oh--we are missing Roz!)'

Lilikate: 'I bet she found the Pie Vault!'

Hollyberye: 'hahaha'

Byrcha: '(Roz will fail the quiz!)'

Hollyberye: '((the quiz is only administered to the Pie Vault

Owner!!!)'

Byrcha: '(boo!)'

Byrcha: '(oh, wait, yay! Byrkhild is the owner! :P)'

Hollyberye: '((oh well then, I will mail the quiz to Thorin's

Homesteads )'

Byrcha: 'I liked the drawing of the lembas, not how I pictured it (from the movies).'

Hollyberye: 'Same here! Great point!!!'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, it was a beautiful drawing!'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes! I like that it's in a yummy scone shape!'


Hollyberye: 'Chapter VII: Of Mim the Dwarf'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien introduces Mim as the last Petty-dwarf, along with his two sons. He paints a rather unsavoury picture of the vague history of the petty-dwarves.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Comments on this initial description of the petty-dwarves?'

Lilikate: 'Should have been Pretty Dwarves!'

Byrcha: 'An odd picture indeed! Not many characters in Tolkiendom like Mim.'

Lilikate: 'Tale would have been funnier.'

Hollyberye: 'You are less racially negative than Tolkien, Lilikate!'

Byrcha: 'Pretty Dwarves?? That would definitely be fantasy! :P'

Hollyberye: 'Yes it's a sad, negative tale to me. Little is known....'

Lilikate: 'I thought this was weird even for Tolkien.... It seems like an idea that spawned into something else down the road, like Gollum for an example.'

Hollyberye: 'Good point. Lots of authors rework earlier unpublished material into something with more substance later on.'

Lilikate: 'He just seems to not fit.'

Byrcha: 'There's also some bit of sorcery/mystery to Mim, like Norse Dwarves.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, the name Mim also made me think of norse myths.'

Hollyberye: 'This is supposedly based on a Finnish folklore poem, as we discussed before, which I haven't read yet but will!'

Lilikate: 'More like Rumpelstiltskin than a Tolkien Dwarf.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh that's an apt description. Rumpelstiltskin also had a foul personality.'

Mithmenelien: 'do you know the name of that Finish myth?'

Hollyberye: [NOTE: looked it up later and we will discuss it at another session, with advance warning:] Turin is based on the legend of Kullervo from the Finnish folklore poem Kalevala. Tolkien wrote that it might be said that the figure of Turin could be derived from elements of Sigurd in Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo.

Mithmenelien: 'Thank you!'

Hollyberye: 'Turin leads his Outlaws south in search of secure refuge. While sheltering in a holly-thicket (most certainly I have a loreish name! …) they spot three stealthy hooded figures with grey sacks.'

Hollyberye: 'The slower one is captured and Turin stays his band from killing it. “So it was that Mim came into the Tale of the Children of Hurin.”'

Hollyberye: 'Turin needs a safe place to sleep for his outlaws and Mim has that. After much discussion—both threatening and reasoning, depending on the speaker—Mim ransoms his life by leading the outlaws to his ancestral home. These are the caves of Amon Rudh.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. “You will lead me to your home. Till then we will not speak of death. That is my will.” Turin looked in the eyes of the dwarf and Mim could not endure it; few indeed could challenge the eyes of Turin in set will or in wrath. Comments?'

Byrcha: 'A bit like Aragorn's commanding presence.'

Malphos: 'Right Byrcha, I was also thinking of Aragorn.'

Hollyberye: 'I hadn't thought of that--at all--and now I do see it.'

Byrcha: '...when he's not succumbing to the curse, or course.'

Lilikate: 'Or he can't blink :).'

Byrcha: 'It is similar to earlier scenes -- they start by shooting at Mim/sons, as outlaws do, then Turin does a reprieve.'

Malphos: 'Not using the power of the voice like Saruman, but somehow directly the will acts like a force on others.'

Hollyberye: 'We are getting the true measure of Turin in manhood here…a powerful personality in his own right, not just a tool of Morgoth…'

Lilikate: 'Or it's just a big game of Willpower Chicken!'

Hollyberye: 'Haha :)'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Like so much of the geography of Middle Earth, Tolkien gives us a clear picture of Amon Rudh, the Bald Hill. An Alan Lee illustration of it appears in this chapter.'

Hollyberye: 'Q Cont'd) I thought we could take a moment to express our thoughts and feelings on Tolkien geography, with a focus on Amon Rudh, but any other spot you want to mention and how Tolkien uses the terrain and scenery to enhance his storylines.'

Byrcha: 'Reminded me of the approach through Hollin to the gates of Moria in FotR.'

Elimraen: 'He's always so precise with his descriptions of direction, what they could see to left and right, etc. Makes it very easy to picture! I love that :).'

Lilikate: 'The Hill reminds me of Home, usually a Bald Hill like this is an old either Iron Age fort or a place for a Norman Mott and Bailey Castle.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, a commanding location like Weathertop.'

Lilikate: 'Hills are often places of safety and tactical advantage.'

Hollyberye: 'I think Tolkien does a SUPERLATIVE job with capturing geography and scenery and vesting every place with meaning. It is one of the points that drew me to him early on and kept me there and it is a primary reason why I love LOTR.'

Byrcha: 'Agreed. one of the things that drew me in originally -- it felt like a Real Place.'

Lilikate: 'Ahh I agree!'

Hollyberye: 'He just is soooo skilled. Yes, very real. My alternative universe .'

Lilikate: 'I do love his descriptions and how he conveys landscape.'

Mithmenelien: 'Did you notice the outlaws walking in Alan Lee's painting? I did not see them at first, they are so small in the vastness of the landscape, there they walk in a winding line.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mith I did!'

Elimraen: 'Ooh good point Mith!'

Hollyberye: 'Oh on the description of Bald Hill-- he mentions Seregon in Flower--blood on the hill-top.'

Malphos: 'Its landscape and language that is very detailed. Often in constrast to the depth of the people in the stories.'

Hollyberye: 'I think that flat hill top with the blood flowers is suffused with meaning.'

Lhinnthel: 'I haven't read this chapter yet (busy week) but now I cannot wait to do so! I agree that his geography descriptions really do draw you in!'

Byrcha: 'And 'aeglos''

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien describes the entranceway in enormous detail.'

Hollyberye: 'To be honest Lhinn, I didn't enjoy sections of the chapter so selectively highlighted this bit :D.'

Byrcha: 'Some of it is a bit dark.'

Lhinnthel: 'Hehe, I understand! The landscape descriptions are often my favorite parts of a book.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, the aeglos plant.'

Mithmenelien: 'I looked up the meaning of the name of the flowers and Seregon is a Sindarin term which means "blood of stone", from sereg ("blood") and gond ("rock"). And it fits so well!'

Hollyberye: 'While I love it all except Angmar ....'

Byrcha: 'Hadn't realized that Amon Rudh was so tall, till you pointed out the painting -- though the book does describe it rising above the surroundings'

Hollyberye: 'It reminds me of Devil's Tower Wyoming. I went out of my way to visit that place because of the movie Close Encounters :)'

Byrcha: 'Aye, that is what the painting looks like.'

Hollyberye: '((the aliens landed there, the friendly ones))--although the Alan Lee painting is starker.'

Hollyberye: 'The hill north of the city in Lothlorien is a favorite spot for me. At any rate...'

Hollyberye: 'When he described the entrance way and intricacies of it, it reminded me a bit of finding the entrances to Moria and earlier to the Lonely Mountain side door.'

Malphos: 'But with a natural explanation. No magic here.'

Hollyberye: 'Right.'

Elimraen: 'Also the entrance to Lothlorien for me :).'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, that too!!!'

Elimraen: 'The bit with the hedge(?) where the Elves are in the trees but can't be seen.'

Hollyberye: 'So Tolkien re-uses this device a lot really!' ((I meant the device of an entranceway not being clear, etc.)'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Following Mim on a long, circuitous route into Bar-en-Danwedh, House of Ransom, as Turin calls it, it is discovered that one of Mim’s two sons died from the Outlaw arrow. Tolkien writes: “Again pity long hardened welled in Turin’s heart as water from rock.” What exactly does Tolkien mean by that characterization?'

Mithmenelien: 'That is so beautifully written!'

Malphos: 'In the whole chapter Turin seems to turn, to kind of awaken to former good.'

Byrcha: 'Well, if pity is a focus of LotR, the theme is here also though subtler perhaps.'

Hollyberye: 'Mim tells Turin that his heart is cooled because Turin speaks like a dwarf-lord of old. Androg is made to break his bow and arrow, lay them at the feet of the dead Dwarf, and is barred through Mim’s curse of ever wielding a bow and arrow again. Androg mutters a return curse at Mim, “May he die with a dart in his throat.”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How is it that all these curses are meaningful when uttered by mere mortals? Is this just a case of reader suspension of disbelief? Is it just something we must accept from the realm of high fantasy? (good thing we mortals in 2015 can’t level curses that stick!)'

Malphos: 'I think we talk of persons believing in curses. For them they are very real.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, scarily real.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, this is from medieval-type high fantasy, where words/magic have power.'

Hollyberye: 'But still...am I meant then to suspend my disbelief?'

Byrcha: 'Perhaps ... depends on if it turns out that way in the end.'

Malphos: 'So for that moment it is of no matter whether there is real power behind it.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and I am not reading ahead, although I have a couple of spoilers I encountered.'

Lilikate: 'We always remember those flippant wishes when they prove a truth in the future.'

Malphos: 'Right, the tale will tell. Or better, if it turns out somehow like the curses wanted, it will only strengthen the belief, and fit to the reader's expectation :).'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, that's a good point! ....with waves of shame even.'

Elimraen: '((I went looking for fan art of some characters and came
across awful spoilers! D:))'

Mithmenelien: 'Since they are believed to work, maybe it is to show how much more powerful the curse Morgoth must then be.'

Hollyberye: 'That's a good point--the curses and pronouncements of the mighty versus those of mere mortals.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay ready for a block of text?'

Elimraen: 'Ready! ^^'

Hollyberye: 'The outlaws move in to the caves, with Androg ill-content, as they must rely on their prisoner to help them exit and re-enter the dwelling. They discuss the roots in Mim’s sack that prove to be “earth-bread”—some mysterious food source that the Elves have not found and Men shall not know.'

Byrcha: '((Esmerelda Burrows is going to be as rich as a Dwarf before long!))'

Hollyberye: '(())'

Lilikate: '((I'm going to make her share a bit with me))'

Hollyberye: 'The outlaws settle in to the complex and mostly empty chambers of Mim’s Halls, with Mim keeping to himself in a small chamber that has a secret hidden stair to the flat summit of Amon Rudh. Androg discovers this but keeps it secret. They live quietly for a while, with only Turin and six of his men figuring out the road maze.'

Hollyberye: 'But as autumn lengthens and they are forced more inside, the outlaws grown weary of the dim halls and Mim appearing near them and causing them unease. However, Turin is the exception, becoming more and more attentive to Mim’s tales and Mim reciprocating with favour upon Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please share your thoughts on the interlude in the Halls—what life was like and what you think of Mim and his effect on the outlaws and Turin. Also, let us know if you have more knowledge about the mysterious “earth-bread.”'

Byrcha: 'Upon rereading the part with Mim, the contrast is almost like he is corrupting Turin the longer they stay.'

Byrcha: 'The earth-bread is neat though -- always wondered what Dwarves ate!'

Mithmenelien: 'For some reason I thought that the earth bread was potatoes, but I don't know.'

Malphos: 'I have the impression that this is a kind of interlude that does not really fit into the whole story, from the pace and the feeling.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, something like potatoes or roots.'

Lilikate: 'Turnips.'

Elimraen: 'The bit with Mim reminds me of the part in chapter 6 that talks about Turin's ear being turned to others who have been wronged, but not in a good way.'

Hollyberye: 'I had not thought of potatoes and turnips--I'll go with potatoes.'

Lilikate: 'NOOOO!'

Malphos: 'So hobbits share that secret? Sam knows them well :)'

Lilikate: 'How dare you not love the humble Turnip!'

Lhinnthel: 'hehe'

Hollyberye: 'But turnips -- how could they love them???' (Holly forgot to relay that when still in a high chair she ate an entire bowl of raw sliced turnips while the grownups were chatting, and never touched them again.)

Lilikate: 'So juicy sweet when roasted.'

Byrcha: 'If Tolkien had said 'he had a sack of poh-tay-toes' it would not have had the same effect.'

Elimraen: 'Heehee!'

Byrcha: 'Any idea how we pronounce 'Mim' -- is it 'Mim' or like 'Mime'.'

Hollyberye: 'I have been saying mim like trim.'

Mithmenelien: 'Me, too.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, like Madam Mim from The Sword in the Stone!'

Elimraen: 'That was very paraphrased. 'To any who claimed to have suffered injustice he ever lent too ready an ear''

Hollyberye: 'Great phrase Elimraen. See--he does possess empathy!'

Byrcha: 'I think it alludes a bit to the Dwarf/sorcery angle, sets them as different from Elves/men with the magic-earthbread stuff.'

Hollyberye: 'It just is very selective.'

Hollyberye: 'Byrcha I am intrigued by what you said about the longer they stay the more it corrupts Turin. I have to think about that'

Mithmenelien: 'An interesting little point, in the Swedish translation, Petty dwarves is translated to “smådvärgarna” meaning small/little dwarves, so I read petty as not meaning the negative personality, but of them actually being smaller than normal dwarves.'

Malphos: '"Kleinzwerge" in German, also little-dwarves.'

Byrcha: 'That's what I would have thought also, but he does give a negative description to start the chapter.'

Hollyberye: 'Well I think they are both smaller but also "meaner" in a negative sense.'

Byrcha: 'Holly, I hadn't thought a lot about it 'til rereading your post -- Turin and Mim often sat whispering, like he is going over to the dark side (!).'

Hollyberye: 'That's a REALLY good point--it is like Turin has become his student. And Mim loves what Turin brings, from his time with the elves, etc.'

Hollyberye: 'In the depths of winter, with hunger and sickness growing, a great, white cloaked man appears—proving to be the elf Beleg Strongbow. Beleg yields to his love for Turin against his own wisdom, by coming to Turin and with a great pack of things to help the men.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is happy because “the desire of his heart was granted without the need to humble himself or to yield his own will.”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why do Androg and some of the others think there was a secret tryst planned between Beleg and Turin? Why are some unhappy Beleg appeared, especially given he brought things they need?'

Lilikate: 'Ach maybe more jealousy of the unknown?'

Byrcha: 'Certainly a bit of a coincidence and the outlaws should be suspicious. 'Oh, hi, I was in the neighborhood -- of the fortress no one can find.''

Mithmenelien: 'Well, Turin did tell Beleg that they would be around that place, did he not?'

Byrcha: 'Oh, did he? I forgot.'

Hollyberye: 'And even though there is no love lost, Turin IS their leader--so yes, I think jealousy is part of it.'

Elimraen: 'Beleg is powerful, has influence with their leader and a very good reason to bear them a grudge!'

Hollyberye: 'Also he is an Elf! Racial hatred and prejudices run high in Tolkien's world. Which is one reason why the fellowship was so special.'

Malphos: 'An emissary of a might that would normally hunt them without mercy.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Malphos--agreed.'

Byrcha: '(Oh dear, white-cloaked gift-giver arriving in midwinter!)'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg delivers the Helm of Hador to Turin, hoping it lifts his thoughts above his life in the wild as the leader of a petty company. Turin rejects that idea but spots Melian’s gift, the lembas. Turin refuses any gift from Doriath.'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg lectures him, and suddenly Turin relents...he refers to himself as a churl, and will accept Beleg’s counsel in all but the road to Doriath. FYI, the Alan Lee illustration we discussed last time was definitely Beleg leaving Doriath with the lembas, etc.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What thoughts do you have on this final chapter scene between Beleg and Turin?'

Hollyberye: 'and also: Q. Trust seems to be a big theme of this chapter—any thoughts on that?'

Malphos: 'You may find friends during your travel in places most unlikely ... the chapter sounds like that. Even if it is a fragile "friendship" with Mim.'

Mithmenelien: 'Turin is not a very trusting person, takes after his mother like that I think.'

Hollyberye: 'I did this summary at the beginning of the week and was surprised I put that last question in about trust ...but they had to trust each other however reluctantly to get to the sheltering caves, for one thing. And Beleg was trusting in a warm reception. I wish I had recorded exactly what I was thinking at the time, as a note to myself. I guess just that the outlaws and Mim living together--requires unlikely trust.'

Byrcha: 'Beleg is still trying to bring Turin back to a noble path (Doriath, Dragon Helm).'

Elimraen: 'Turin also trusts Beleg enough to accept his rebuke.'

Mithmenelien: 'And maybe about the trust (friendship) between Turin and Mim.'

Byrcha: 'But Turin has trouble trusting the Elves now (curse), when he sees the lembas he thinks he's being manipulated.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, and I do agree Trust is hard to come by for Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments on the two chapters we covered today?'

Mithmenelien: 'I also thought about the chamber that they were told not to enter. I think for certain that someone will open the closed chamber and look inside, for if one thing is true in old tales, then told not to look, someone always does!'

Lilikate: 'Yep!'

Hollyberye: 'YES!!!'

Malphos: 'Right! like a planned turn of story that did not happen.'

Hollyberye: 'I see lots of foreshadowing with the chamber as well as the top of the bald hill.'

Byrcha: 'Aye!'

Hollyberye: 'As well as the curses levied by Mim and Androg at each other.'

Lilikate: 'Probably going to end badly!'

Hollyberye: 'Not to cut you off but: Thank you everyone for your participation!' :D' any other comments?'

Lilikate: 'Thanks Holly!'

Byrcha: 'Aye, thanks, twas fun!'

Malphos: 'Is this the call for encore? ^^'

Lhinnthel: 'Thank you so much! This was most interesting!'

Elimraen: 'Thanks for leading!'

Mithmenelien: 'Thank you to Holly for having it!'

Lilikate: 'Thanks for sharing everyone, it really does help explore this book.'

Malphos: 'Thank you Holly and Lili for organizing this!'

[Discussed being able to move back to a 4PM server start time on Saturdays and debated next session. All agreed two chapters is the manageable amount. All agreed we are getting much more out of this book by discussing it here.]

NEXT SESSION: Saturday, 9 May 2015, 4PM Server time, Michel Delving, Bird and Baby Inn; /joinchannel lmbbookclub

The Children of Hurin: Chapters VIII and IX

Newcomers welcome! Didn't manage to read it all? Still welcome!