Spring Racing Carnival Qualifier Races - Too Much?

[Kiralynn]

I have had quite a bit of feedback on the SRC through email, in-game mail, PM and post. A common theme I am seeing is that both participants and volunteers were overwhelmed by the number of events on Saturday. I would like to present an idea that would help ease the burden.

This year, we have two of the qualifier races long before the SRC, and only 4 of the 6 right before the Bree Cup.
We could have 4 of them in advance and 2 right before the championship race.
We could have 2 qualifiers before the Bree Cup and fill the other 12 slots with the highest dozen riders from the season rankings.
We could even do away with qualifier races and just take our top 18 riders, with a race-off before the SRC in case of ties.

What do you think?

[Cennwyn]

Kira--I might not be reading the poll correctly, but it didn't quite make sense to me.

My thoughts: why not just have ONE other qualifying race on the day of the Bree Cup? That way you're only dealing with two races the day-of.

[Byrcha]

I voted for 4 qualifiers. Regardless of the number of qualifiers or whether we use the standings to fill out the field, I don't think we should have any qualifier races on the day of the final race. It just makes for too long of a day. It is nice to have the build-up to the final race with 'extras' like the horse parade, fashion show, the formation riding team and the concert(s), but starting at 11 and running til after 8 is a very long day. Having no more than one qualifier per day (no matter how far in advance) and varying the times for weekday-night and weekend-day also seems wise.

I also think we should investigate moving the race *outside* of Bree-town. The lag was a problem and even without Festival it could still be laggy next year. The race could run *around* Bree, as in outside the walls through the trench, up to the Horsefields, over to the Chetwood, down through Staddle, etc. Racing through the streets is fun, but unless the lag issues are solved on the server-side before then I'm not sure it is worth the potential blowback next time if things go awry.

[Kiralynn]

Cennwyn wrote:

Kira--I might not be reading the poll correctly, but it didn't quite make sense to me. My thoughts: why not just have ONE other qualifying race on the day of the Bree Cup? That way you're only dealing with two races the day-of.

Right now, the only way to enter the Bree Cup is to win top-three in one of the 6 qualifier races. It doesn't matter how well you do in the other Windy Acres races.

My idea is that we make the season's races into semi-qualifiers. The top "X" number of riders based on the standings are entered into the Bree Cup. This puts more importance on the regular season events. We would also reduce the number of SRC qualifier races, so that we don't end up with too many entries for the championship race.

The goal is to end up with 18 total qualified racers for the Bree Cup.

I hope that makes more sense.

[Andeon]

I can forsee 3 issues with using the season's races as the qualifier for the SRC...

1 - The ratings during the racing season depend significantly on the # of races you can attend, at least as near as I've been able to tell - which would eliminate talented racers that can only make it to a handful of events due to scheduling issues

obviously, fix #1 - is to make sure that the race schedule is a little more spread out, which might help a *little* bit, allowing a larger range of people to make it to more races

2 - I'm about 50/50 on the next issue, but there *are* some advantages to having last minute arrivals qualify during the qualifying races and make it into the SRC - it's nice to know that someone that's missed the majority if not all of the season CAN still show up last minute, demonstrate some skill and talent that any number of factors may have prevented during the rest of the year, and still make a showing in the final race.

That being said, there's always the downside of this, in that last minute qualifiers with little real commitment suddenly show up, get lucky once, qualify, effectively muscleing out what may be a more talented, more committed player that only had that once chance to qualify and got unlucky. Still, I'd like to think this scenario is rather rare, and would require a conspiracy of numerous events and factors all to focus on one particular person to happen.

downside #2, unfortunately, also somewhat includes the 50/50 good/bad idea of a mostly untalented entry getting lucky, qualifying for the bree cup, and then not really being able to compete at that level, thereby effectively eliminating a more qualified contender...which might make the remaining contestants happy, but really isn't in the best interests of good sportsmanship.

#3 - It also occured to me, that by using the standings to determine entries, interesting variances would occur - it's not necessarily good or bad, but right now, once you race in a qualifier, you're eliminated from racing in any other qualifiers, effectively taking those riders, which are typically the good ones, out of the running for future qualifiers, allowing other riders better chances of placing. By setting it in the standings, no particular race would eliminate any particular rider from participating in a qualifier, which would mean that those lower in the race rankings would still have to consistently compete against the highest rankers, which might still work, but certainly eliminates some opportunities for riders that are low in the rankings for any number of different reasons.

I rambled a bit there at the end, but I hope my point is understandable - if it isn't, just say so, and I can try again...

I'm curious Kira - looking over the current years rankings, who *would* have gotten into the Bree cup, vs who did? I think that's as good a gauge as any for if there would be any crushing difference between the two. I still *like* having the qualifier races, but I will admit that they can add a degree of variability to the quality of racers in the final bree cup, which is both a good and bad thing, I feel.

[Andeon]

just a little research to answer my own question - top 18 riders of this years standings...

**unnecessary list removed**

Actually, I just noticed, if you check the Windy Acres Ranch rider standings for the year, Kiralynn has in green all the qualifiers - while the front 7 all fit within the 18 top riders limit, please note most of the remainder don't, and a good portion (nearly half) are all at the bottom of the current rider standings list.

ps - Kiralynn, just for the record, you've got Draugelen listed twice, once near the bottom of the list, and once about halfway

So, clearly, the Bree Cup, using the qualifier races, included a fairly hefty range of riders that ONLY showed up during the qualifiers - including several very enthusiastic last minute riders.

Now, I can't say for *sure* if that's a *good* thing or not, but basically, those people that actually make it to the qualifier races are *usually* doing so with an eye towards attending the SRC - whereas the top 18 ranked riders, for whatever reasons, may be racing for fun during the season WITHOUT an eye particularly towards the bree cup, meaning they might be no-shows despite being very qualified.

Now, of course, you can always take whoever's next down on the list, but there's no guarantee they're going to show up either - so, you're gonna have some crazy scrambling, I imagine, to fill in the 18 slot race last minute - it's at least a possibility you'll have to consider if you want to run it this way

So, there's my next round of consideration - take it and do with it what you will

[Kiralynn]

There are also two other interesting points...

* If the top riders don't have to participate in a last minute qualifier, they're free to help judge those races. More volunteers is a good thing.

* It's either this, or we replace some of the standard season races with qualifiers, since we can't have so many events at next year's SRC.

[Harperella]

The Melbourne Cup uses the following qualification method:

Wikipedia wrote:

Balloting conditions The race Directors retain the absolute discretion to exclude any horse from the race, or exempt any horse from the ballot on the race, but in order to reduce the field to the safety limit of 24, horses are balloted out based on a number of factors which include: prizemoney earned in the previous two years, wins or placings in certain lead-up races allocated handicap weight The winner of the following races are exempt from any ballot:[1][2] Lexus Stakes (formerly Saab Quality and registered as The Hotham Handicap) Victoria Derby LKS Mackinnon Stakes Cox Plate Caulfield Cup Doncaster Cup (UK) Irish St. Leger (IRE) Tenno Sho (Spring) (JPN) Sankei Sho All Comers (JPN) Arlington Million (USA) San Juan Capistrano Handicap (USA) Australian Stayers Challenge[3] The limitation of 24 starters is stated explicitly to be for safety reasons. However in the past far larger numbers were allowed - the largest field ever raced was a staggering 39 runners in 1890.

So basically, the organizer pick who goes. If you won another major cup, you can't compete in the Melbourne cup.

Looking at the Kentucky Derby, we have a more "pay-to-play" style. You nominate your horse (with a fee) and then the organizers either accept or decline. Here's something I found on eHow:

ehow wrote:

The Derby Itself You must nominate your horse to be in the Kentucky Derby. There are three different times of year you can nominate the horse for the race, and if you do it early, you pay much less than nominating later. In 2008, January 20 was the nomination deadline, and the cost was $600. To nominate your horse between January 21 until March 31, the nomination jumped to $6,000. To nominate your horse after March 31, the cost was $200,000. The only way your fees are refundable is if there are more than 20 horses nominated and your horse doesn't get in. If there are more than 20 horses nominated, horses will be chosen according to their previous earnings at the track, the highest earners winning a slot in the Derby. Horses nominated before the March 31 get preference over a later nomination, regardless of earnings. Once nominated and accepted, you must then pay the entry fee for the race. It costs $25,000 to enter and another $25,000 to start. The lowest price for getting into the Derby is $50,600 with early nomination. Keep in mind that only the winner of the Derby reaps the benefits of the race (with purse winnings, future stud fees and notoriety). You also have to figure in training costs, cost of transportation to and from Kentucky, veterinarian, feed and maintenance costs. Only one horse a year will end up being worth all the expense. Read more: How Does a Horse Get Entered Into The Kentucky Derby? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4596439_horse-entered-kentucky-derby.html#ixzz2Se1ovYOw

I think the RL ways of getting into a race don't translate well. But the idea that race organizers can pick a few favorites has appeal to me. Maybe we do it like our Weatherstock weighted lottery? 3 qualifiers for 9 riders, and then another 9 riders from standings.

[Andeon]

Honestly, Kiralynn, now that I'm thinking of it, this might be one of those times for you to step back, and really decide what it is *you* want from the Bree Cup racers.

Do you want to reward the most *skilled* riders with the chance to compete, or win big prizes, or whatever.

Or do you want your most *dedicated* riders, the ones that really support the industry and show up as often as possible, to be the ones competing?

Or do you want the race as *egalitarian* as possible, hoping to attract new riders by making the entry requirements fairly easy and painless, and allow them to take part in the spectacle, and fall in love with the sport, etc...etc...

or something else. Point being, *your* vision for how you want the Bree Cup to play out, the things you want it to accomplish, personally, socially, and then pick the criteria for entry based on those. I find, sometimes, at least for myself, that when I'm presented with 50 different equally good/bad options, that just nailing down for myself what *I* want from the experience, and then picking the elements that I think will take me there, serves just as well as any other decision-making-matrix.

it's an option - as always, take it for what it's worth to you :)

[Kaerri]

Andeon wrote:

I'm curious Kira - looking over the current years rankings, who *would* have gotten into the Bree cup, vs who did? I think that's as good a gauge as any for if there would be any crushing difference between the two.

Since you asked, I wouldn't have made it into either this year's or last year's Bree Cup, if it was based on ranking alone. I can't make mid-week racing and I tend to leave Saturdays free for a number of other commitments (other games, other guilds, most importantly RL and family). Aiming for a single qualifier is much easier for me than trying to make a number of different races to improve my standings. Just my personal viewpoint as a rider, take it as you will. :)

Also, I've heard that when finding judges, any needed slots tend to be filled by LMBers that came to race but sacrificed that in favor of ensuring the race takes place, which means that choosing Bree Cup contenders based on the year's standings may cost the helpful types their slot.

[Caiyyd]

Gonna use myself as an example. I was in the top of the rider standings this year which means if they were used I would have had a spot in the Bree Cup automatically. Since they didn't I had to race for a spot.
As a result I was unable to volunteer for any of the qualifiers (I didn't get my place until the very last race)

I think a mix of qualifier races and standing spots would work out. If the top six standing folks are auto in there would only need to be 4 qualifiers to fill the rest of the spots. Have one each week leading up to the Cup and the other events in a big party on race day

[Erroodwen]

As someone who is fairly new to the kin and horse racing, I really enjoyed the SRC. It was my first time participating in any sort of race in the qualifiers on Friday and it's too bad what happened in Bree, I was really excited for that race but what's done is done; it was fun none the less!

Anyway, I figured I would offer my opinion as I think several great points have been made. :)

1- From what I understand, ya'll have races over the whole season and keep track of standings. I think the top riders from the standings should be given a spot in the Bree Cup, after all they have participated all year long. I would only allow an automatic berth though to people that have shown up to say 75% (for example) of the races. That way people don't just show up for a couple races just to say they participated in the season to get a free pass to the Bree Cup.

2- I think you should have at least a couple qualifier races for people who aren't part of the racing season. That way newcomers (like me) who weren't around for the season or who haven't heard of Windy Acres can participate. Since so much advertising is done for the SRC, it gives new folks a chance to check it out!

3- Brycha made the comment that the Bree Cup should be held outside of the city, perhaps as a race around it. I heartily agree after crashing (yes, I did actually crash, not lag) this year in the race along with several others. Someone else mentioned that Bree has been problematic before and I could see the SRC getting a bad rap if it continues to happen in coming years. That way you eliminate the extra drama of people who lag or crash in the race and lag for judges trying to decide who won (I think it took a good 20 min for yall to decide the winner).

4- If you do hold the Bree Cup outside the city, you could hold the rare breeds parade/fashion contest in the city and then before the start of the race have a big fanfare parade of everyone heading through the city to go out the gate to the starting line.

[Aalloria Borealis]

I agree with Caiyyd...his high standing for the year, due to his dedication, should have earned him a slot.

Also, there were several races that I, and others who always showed up, volunteered as judges, because a successful event put on by Windy Acres and the LMB was more important. In the other thread I suggest giving volunteers the same points as placing...like 3 or something.

I also think showing up should at least get a point - there are some people who never miss one of your races, but due to their "lack of skill" or lag or whatever, riding in the wrong direction what not - never place - but trudge on every time because without riders....there is no race. They should get participation points - you know, credit for being a faithful racer on the bracket as opposed to someone showing up for a single race and getting 10 points.

It would also get you volunteers for the main events if riders like Caiyyd already had a spot since he placed so well, so many times...he didn't get his points overnight.

Also - please never do the race like that in a city again. My victory was completely stolen from me, I had so many whispers and 3 mails complaining how they would have won, or their skill blah blah BS.....I risked everything jumping the hedge.....and it paid off at litterally the last minute. Due to confusion and pissed off people because the server froze....I had to log off afterwards....sucked...really bad. I know to help my lag I turned my settings and advanced settings down sooo low I couldn't even see the houses or carts in the road until I passed them....I just knew the course. Had a lag at the start, I just knew the shortest steps. Doing it in a city like that gives sore losers a reason to vent at others for no justifiable reason, I am sure you and Harper got your earfulls as well.

Last, I like the idea of pay-to-play. I really enjoyed the large purse...the TP more than gold, but I knew I had contributed to that purse, and it felt good to keep it in the kin. Had some stranger shown up and taken all our donated money having never given anything....just saying let the races cost gold, and that go towards the purse. I am still happy to pad the money box as a kin, but would like to know others contributed if they are going to have a chance to walk away with our gold.

Aalloria Borealis

[Kiralynn]

Aalloria Borealis wrote:

Also, there were several races that I, and others who always showed up, volunteered as judges, because a successful event put on by Windy Acres and the LMB was more important. In the other thread I suggest giving volunteers the same points as placing...like 3 or something.

Three points is the number that the 2nd placer earns, but I do like the concept of rewarding volunteers. The problem here is that giving points to volunteers is no measure of their racing skill, which is what the standings are supposed to be. Perhaps we need two separate point scores - one for how well they performed as racers and one for general participation. Perhaps we will need to reserve Bree Cup slots based on both. That's probably something for a separate thread...

Aalloria Borealis wrote:

I also think showing up should at least get a point

This is already the case. Everyone gets 1 point for showing up. Then, you earn 1 additional point for 3rd place, 3 for 2nd, and 5 for 1st.

Aalloria Borealis wrote:

Also - please never do the race like that in a city again. My victory was completely stolen from me, I had so many whispers and 3 mails complaining how they would have won, or their skill blah blah BS...

I am strongly considering (read:extremely likely) to move the SRC out of Bree next year, the map glitches and lag spikes at the top of a list of reasons.

Please keep in mind that most of the racers, meaning the people who didn't win the race as opposed to the "losers" who have been acting like idiots, handled both the glitch and the delayed judging results very well. Also remember that if anyone has complaints, you are welcome to tell them that their feedback would best be directed at me. Commenting or complaining to anyone else doesn't help make future races better.

Aalloria Borealis wrote:

Last, I like the idea of pay-to-play.

This is a topic that was discussed at the beginning of last season. It was ultimately decided not to do this, except during the SRC qualifier cups. Even then, there are usually enough sponsors to cover the race fees. I'll try to summarize some of the key points that led us to decide not to have prize purses.

* It prevents new (low level) and visiting players from entering the races. Tinki sponsored me for the Beryl Cup two years ago or there wouldn't be a Windy Acres Ranch.
* It brings up accusations of gambling, stealing money, fixing races, and other nasty things.
* It adds more work in book-keeping.
* It puts more pressure on us to provide "perfect" races, because the participant's money is on the line. Without an entry fee, nobody is out anything if there's a glitch, lag spike, judging error, bad course design, and so forth.
* We have been reported several times to Turbine for fraud and gambling, but since we were giving prizes without asking for anything, those reports were very quickly dismissed. (This made the issue very clear cut.)

Of course, if someone else wants to host an LMB-affiliated horse race, they're welcome to accept gold into a prize pot. I'm just not comfortable with that for WAR races.

On a side note, I had brought up the idea of having "funny money", virtual racing coins, and allowing people to wager those freely. I thought people might want to play with virtual virtual gambling just to see how well they did and compare their winnings. It never caught on.

[Aalloria Borealis]

Those are all excellent reasons to keep the gold out of it, thanks for the summary.