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gaiagil
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re: LMB Bookclub-The Silmarillion--Chapter 11!

Greetings Bookclubbers!

The next chapter is Chapter 11: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor.

Here are the questions to consider for our discussion:

1. The chapter opens with grief over Melkor's flight, the destruction of the trees, and the rebellion of Fëanor. "And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil." Let's discuss the "marring of Fëanor." Melkor's fault?

2. In the chapter, we also see a limit to the power of the Valar when Nienna and Yavanna are unable to revive the Trees. How does working together make for a better solution than working as individual crafters?

3. What are your impressions of the maiden who drives the vessel of the Sun, Arien, and her counterpart on the moon, Tilion?

4. What did you think of the 7 days of darkness before the first sunrise?

5. Because the Sun and Moon are ever aloft, but not together, trouble ensues. How do the Valar solve the problem? Is this a good solution? How is the solution much like an explanatory myth like "How the Tiger Got its Stripes"?

6. Discuss Morgoth's reaction to the Sun and the Moon.

7. The Valar are dismayed by the attack on Tilion. Their response is the Nurtalë Valinóreva, the hiding of Valinor. What are the possible repercussions of this act?

Enjoy!
I'll see you in the morning!

Gaiagil


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gaiagil
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re: LMB Bookclub-The Silmarillion--Chapter 11!

Here's the chat log from our discussion this morning. Another great one!

[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'testing testing...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'good...and done...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Welcome! I think it's just you and me this morning.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'we'll...see...give it...10 more minutes...just...10 more minutes...ma....'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'zzzzzrrrrrrrzzzzz......'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, I suppose we had better start whenever you're ready there, Gaia'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We did make a good try! Okay, General Impressions of the Chapter?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'general impressions? not enough spiders...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: ':) - but beyond that...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'There is darkness, and light...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the creation of the sun and the moon...the last leaf of silver tilpurion...or something...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and the last golden fruit of...Aren..Arman...Arsomethingorother...the sun'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the last living remnants of the trees of Laruelin and...something else...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Telperion and Laurelin...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'which of course, the bloody Noldor had to give yet another name to...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'which I didn't even bother to remember - seriously, these days, I only have room for one set of names in my head at this point...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I go back to an earlier chapter when I read this. How Yavanna claims she cannot remake the Trees, and yet, here she makes something better, more lasting.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ai, we do like our words.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but yes...Yavanna and...er...Nienna, and their desperate efforts to ressurect the trees fail...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and Tolkien seems to like to point out that while the sun and moon have their own beauty...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'they still never acheive the beauty of the original trees...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They don't exactly fail, though, as their efforts produce the flower and fruit needed to make the sun and moon.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'which I still find interesting, as the trees were still their *second* light source - and yet Tolkien doesn't get all sentimental over the light of the two lamps of whatsit and whatchmacallit'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, good point! I had forgotten those.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The beauty of the sun and moon seem more fierce and bigger than that of the trees. The light from those reaches the whole world instead of just Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, they *do* sorta fail - because even though they get the one leaf, and the one fruit, Tolkien still points out that the light of sun and moon are not equal to those of the trees...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'that only the Silmaril possess light like the trees once did...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Where does it say that the light is not equal. How many paragraphs in?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and...its interesting you should mention that the whole world gets the light...because, and I may be misremembering in my haze of sleepiness...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '**checking**'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'page before last of the chapter...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '"Still therefore, after the Long Night, the light of Valinor was greater and fairer than upon Middle-Earth; for the sunh rested there, and the lights of heaven drew nearer to Earth in that region..."'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, I see it. Thank you.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '...But neither the sun nore th emoon can recall the light that was of old, that came from the trees before they were touched by the poison of Ungoliant - that light lives now in the Silmarils alone>"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i like typing...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Good. This doesn't say that the light was not as good, but that it doesn't recall it. I think the implication is that there was something special about the light of the Trees that is not in the Sun and Moon.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but earlier, you mentioned about the light of sun and moon being available to all middle earth, and IIRC, that choice was made in part as a response/anticipation of the arrival of Man...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, I agree with you on that. It was also to keep Melkor in check. As long as Beleriand remained in darkness, Melkor had an advantage.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, let's get to my questions.'
[To lmbbookclub] '1. The chapter opens with grief over Melkor's flight, the destruction of the trees, and the rebellion of Feanor. "And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil." Let's discuss the "marring of Feanor." Melkor's fault?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sure thing...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yeah, the melkors fault for feanor question - I gotta admit, I think we already covered this to my satisfaction in earlier discussion...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Melkor may have planted the seeds for Feanor's fall, but Feanor did it all on his own, as far as I'm concerned...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think it is interesting that this is the Valar's perception. I wonder if it is a correct perception though.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'although, there is something to be said for his overly-passionate nature that contributed to his downfall...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Exactly, Andeon. There seem to be many problems that led to Feanor's rebellion.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i find it curious that Manwe knows that even though Feanor is going to come to regret, and many will come to regret, the deeds of Feanor...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he still holds a strange kind of...nostalgia...for the fact that Feanor's failings ARE, in fact, going to become the stuff of legend'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I was reading an essay of Tolkien's about communication with elves where he said that the Valars' inability to allow Eru's vision to come to fruition led to many problems.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They circumvent the ordained order by panicking and gathering the elves in Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'hrm...don't get that from this *particular* chapter, but yeah, I can see it - the Valar becoming "overprotective" of the Elves, sheltering them from the harshness of the world...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The essay suggests that the problems with Feanor came from the Valar's interventions as much as anything.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, if its a theme, it's VERY subtle...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I agree. I only made the connection because I was reading this chapter and that essay at the same time. It's intriguing.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'most of the time, the context of the Silmarillion leads the Valar's actions to be faulted only in that they don't do so earlier, or vehemently enough...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That's true in many ways.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They do seem slow to action. The next question segues nicely from that idea.'
[To lmbbookclub] '2. In the chapter, we also see a limit to the power of the Valar when Nienna and Yavanna are unable to revive the Trees. How does working together make for a better solution than working as individual crafters?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but its true...as we've been reading...the picture I'm getting of the Valar becomes...increasingly...faulty-ish...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes. They do not seem to be beyond making mistakes.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'as to your question...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*personally*, the pattern we've seen so far would seem to suggest that they were destined to fail...and by fail, I mean fail to resurrect the trees in whole - we'll skip how we feel about the sun and moon for the moment...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'in this world, it seems like NOTHING can be ENTIRELY re-created once marred...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, agreed.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The sense of loss is important here.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I'd say *thats* a prevailing theme throughout the Silmarillion - nothing EVER comes back quite the same way it was...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I like that. We should post that.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and yet, a similarly prevailing theme is the fact that that which you loved of the first can often be recaptured in a new creation...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, I think of it as a trajectory of crafting prowess. You get better as you practice your art.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Though this act of creation took a great group effort. Manwe, Yavanna, Nienna, Varda, and Aule.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'you know, its interesting - the first great act of creation was a massive group effort...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It was bigger than just Yavanna, who created the Trees on her own.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'then, the Valar all go off on their own for their own usual individual creations...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and now they're sorta teaming up, possibly for the first time in a long time, from what I can remember...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Nice connection, Andeon! I agree! Eru seems to be saying that we all play a role in creative acts, and yet, the Valar seem to forget this...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'maybe we'll see more collaborations, assuming the Valar realize how well this works...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but yes, what you just said...there we go...still a bit...sleepy'
[To lmbbookclub] 'There are usually problems with the individual creations too, unless they are accepted by others.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aule's invention of the Dwarves for instance.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'hey, but those dwarves turned out just fine! :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, absolutely, but his creation was accepted by Eru, though it miffed the other Valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, mostly Yavanna, I think...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but i get your point :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Of course, Eru let's Melkor sing his discordant song for a bit longer than he should.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yavanna was the only one who knew about it.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'she was also the only one with an immediate stake in the repurcussion of the creation of a crafting race...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, as for Eru letting discord go on for longer than he *should*...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye. And her pouting got her leave to produce things of her own too...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'dunno about that - the general faith I have in the concept of Eru and the song is that Eru's song pretty much handles whatever you throw at it...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think he does. He shuts down Melkor's song three times, then weaves a new song to undo some of Melkor's creations.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and the length of discord is somewhat irrelevant, as the nature of discord is trumped by the nature of the song to triumph despite it...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, that could easily be an argument of a whole nother kind...i'll leave it to you to decide'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But the discord does indeed set into motion mistrust and lamentation. It brings a depth to the melody but also brings in problems and the potential for more problems.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Here's the next question:'
[To lmbbookclub] '3. What are your impressions of the maiden who drives the vessel of the Sun, Arien, and her counterpart on the moon, Tilion?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'it brings conflict...conflict which then proceeds to occupy the next 200 pages of the story of the creation of the world...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'as for sun and moon...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And conflict is the key to good storytelling.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I like Arien...for some reason, Tilion seems a bit flaky to me...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Agreed. He's a lovesick irrational thing.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I love that her eyes glow so fiercely that the Eldar cannot look at her.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I actually enjoyed the point-out that she was by nature like flame, but Tolkien points out that she was one that did not join melkor'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'morgoth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And that she forsakes the usual raiment to run naked through the skies. It's an intriguing image.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'our fire grims should be a stark reminder of the fact that many of the fire spirits, iirc, joined morgoth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, tis true. She seems purer and more fierce than they.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And Morgoth fears her, which I also found intriguing. It's like they had a past or something.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'they do also go on a bit about the nature of Morgoth's power...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'that he's no longer able to assault the valar that move in the heavens...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'that his power has become rooted to the earth, and he can send minions to assail them...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'testing, testing, 1 ...2 ... 3 - did Camara join us? hrm hrm...*nudge nudge*'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I like how even flaky Tilion defeats Morgoth. It does show that Morgoth's choices have diminished his power, which is still greater than any of the Eldar or mortal beings, but less than the Valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sorry - got a tad distracted with the arrival of Cam...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No worries.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup - its clear that while Morgoth can still threaten the valar, his *personal* assaults are diminishing...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he's no longer *quite* at their level, but becoming a far more entrenched danger here in Middle Earth'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Tilion is kinda cute though. The way he's smitten with Arien.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, his earthly powers are formidable.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and, as Middle Earth seems to occupy the focus and attention of the Valar, he *is* still opposing them...just no longer on a direct level'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yeah, my impressions of Tilion were really quite...juvenile...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! And their response is to sequester.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i had images of him in my mind, joyriding the island of the moon, weaving back and forth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I know... it's hilarious.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Manwe's facepalming while what appears to be his younger cousin just driving off into the sunset...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Why was he chosen, I kept wondering...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'dunno - but I remember the wood elves of mirkwood in the hobbit being far more traditionally elf-like, than the elves of rivendell or Lorien...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'they were flighty, and liked song and wine, and poofed into the ether when you disturbed their "wild feast"...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Tilion seems very much like that sort of elf...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, the silly ones who sing silly songs.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This ties into my next question so I'll ask it.'
[To lmbbookclub] '4. What did you think of the 7 days of darkness before the first sunrise?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We have moons during that time, but no sun.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, its not quite 7 days of darkness - its 7 days of moonlight before the first sun'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'there you go'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye. But the first sunrise must have been amazing to everyone. Very bright.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but yes...I dunno - significance of 7's and 40's and such...often need to be reinforced multiple times...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I *do* sorta like that it's *implied* that the vessel for the sun seems to take more time to fashion than the vessel of the moon'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or that they cannot be completed together, which means it takes at least 7 "days" to create such a vessel...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I keep thinking about the elves of Beleriand who have lived in starlight all this time. The sun must have blown them away.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its possible we'll get a chapter about how all races react to the new daystar...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ooh, good point. That's entirely possible.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'speaking of which, this chapter gave me several new horsenames :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Like what?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Tilion the flighty?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, I've decided to name at least one Valaroma, although I may reserve that for my buff stick LI...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but Daystar makes for a good horse name...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! It would!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'as does Arien...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'maybe name my Goat Tilion...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Arien is a great name.Tilion is an awesome goat name.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next question:'
[To lmbbookclub] '5. Because the Sun and Moon are ever aloft, but not together, trouble ensues. How do the Valar solve the problem? Is this a good solution? How is the solution much like an explanatory myth like "How the Tiger Got its Stripes"?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'interesting...I had to re-read that section...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i missed some stuff last night'
[To lmbbookclub] 'First we have Tilion getting burned and turning the Moon's vessel dark, I assume on one side...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, it turns out that their first plan, was to have the sun and moon travel...together...ish...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so that their lights would be constantly mingled...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, and crisscross the sky back and forth.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but that screws everyone up - Loriena and Este can't see the stars, and other people complain that sleep has been banished from the world...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'plus, Tilion can't seem to keep himself from getting too close to Arien'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Days were counted from the passing in midsky, but given Tilion's erratic behavior that seemed a bad way to do it.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, Always Day and never Night.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, somewhat amusingly, they change the plan so that we get two moments of mingling, and then separated lights, but still Tiliion can't seem to hold his horses...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'what a nut...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I know. That's why I love his character.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'what a loon...loon like the luneys...get it...moon - crazy folk...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'etc etc...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But it does seem to serve as an explanation for things: the dark side of the moon, the fact that the moon can be in the sky with the sun, the fact that the sun and moon set on a schedule of sorts.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'there just seems to be some human connection between the moon and being a little...off'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, I like the lunacy connection.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup - good classic mythology'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I also thought it exciting that the Sun is female here. In other myth systems the Moon is female and the sun male.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'true...although, to be fair, being a living flame sorta transcends female in my head, but I get your point'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I can see that. She seems beyond gender especially in her ignorance of Tilion's attention.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'no, I find that element *distinctly* female...*grumbles a little bit*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but seriously...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Though most of the moon goddesses were like that in Greek and Roman mythologies. Beyond gender... Artemis and Diana.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its true that Tilion's borderline affections seem to be irrelevant to anyone but him...makes me slightly sad...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Awww. You may have a point there...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They keep trying to dissuade him from his passion.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I'll admit, if we actually followed some bumbling teenage romance between the sun and moon, the story would get a little silly - but I like those kinds of silly stories sometimes, so Im gonna miss it a little bit, even if it would be *wildly* innapropriate for the tone of the Silmarillion'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I find Tilion enchanting because he's inappropriate.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It seems to be Tolkien's way of explaining the moon's irregular pattern.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I'll admit - after 100 pages of creation, darkness, strife, deception - this story could use a little lightening up'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, and I think this comic relief is short-lived. We go to darker things from here on.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'My next question, we already started on, but perhaps we can get deeper on it:'
[To lmbbookclub] '6. Discuss Morgoth's reaction to the Sun and the Moon.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup - and I expect we'll see some mention of Tilion soon - the moon and stars seems to figure prominently with elves...i'm sure we haven't heard the last of Tilion'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I hope we haven't.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Morgoth's nature has changed...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he's trapped in his mortal form (thank you Ungoliant!)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, that was a great insight of yours.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And he's tied to the Earth.'
[To lmbbookclub] '(She is in this chapter, then!)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he fears the sun now, he relies more heavily on his minions to do his bidding...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'not really - his trapped nature was in the previous chapter - i'm just sorta summarzing...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Is he getting lazy, then?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'maybe 2 chapters ago...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'not really lazy...its a symbol of his investment...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Or does fear keep him from direct conflict?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'notice, that to empower his minions, he becomes...dispersed, i think, is the word tolkien uses'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah, yes, that makes sense. He is sharing his power and thus losing some of it.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he's not weaker collectively - its just that his attention (and his power) is now "invested* in the creatures of middle earth...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'actually, its quite a bit like Feanor and his mother...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Feanor's mother invests so much of her life in Feanor that in the end, she cannot survive on her own...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'She did see that as a weakness.'
[lmbbookclub] Saker: 'Or like Sauron and the Ring'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Feanor mentions that if he should break open the silmarils to release the light that could replenish the trees, it would destroy him...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, indeed, Saker!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he's so powerfully invested in their creation...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup - and who? what? Saker! Welcome!...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Morgoth does seem quite put out by the Sun and Moon thing. He doesn't expect the Valar to recover from the destruction of the Trees.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, Morgoth appears to be starting? continuing? Tolkien's general theme of creation involves investment...and investment becomes a strength, as well as a vulnerability'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, indeed.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, maybe one day he'll stop being surprised by new creation, and perhaps one day the Valar will stop being surprised by Morgoth creating more destruction...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Then there'd be no story!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, we've set feanor on his path - i'm sure he's gonna be up for big surprises for awhile'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and then, of course, Man has yet to appear - although he's coming to a theater near you, so get dressed!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It's funny that when he triumphs he thinks it is an ultimate victory, but soon discovers that it is not.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Morgoth I mean.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'you know, you say that, Gaia - but I have to say, I don't *recall* any point in the story so far where Morgoth believes he's won'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'even with the destruction of the trees, the first thing he does is hide in a cloud of darkness and flee'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think he feels this way after they kill the trees.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he never gloats, never even seems to stop and get arrogant'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, but he creates a darkness that allows him to escape. Remember that he was a captive for a long time.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'honestly, I haven't yet gotten the sense that he feels like he's not hiding his true nature, or on the run'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Interesting. I feel the opposite. He often tries to hide his nature and runs from the Valar, the Eldar and Ungoliant.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'he *hates* a lot...that word comes up with Morgoth a lot...but only with Ungoliant do we get words that say that he took his promise lightly...stuff like that'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sorry - you misread my previous statement...or I threw in too many negatives...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We get it when he is decieving the Eldar to sow seeds of miscontent.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'my point is, he's spent *every* moment we've read of hiding his true nature, or being on the run...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'theres never a moment where his *isn't*...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah, Then we do agree!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'at least, as far as I've read...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, my point is, you can't really feel like you've *won*, if you're still hiding, or running...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'thats why I'm arguing that he never feels triumphant...or at least, if it came up in the readings, i've missed it...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I see what you are saying, but I think his moment with Ungoliant is very telling. He feels triumphant until she demands the silmarils. Even then, despite his fear of her, he refuses to give them up. They are his prize.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'oddly, his sense of accomplishment almost seems to hinge on tearing down that which the valar create...dunno if he can *ever* really win with that mindset...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That is a good point, Andeon. I think he sees it as winning.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But in reality it is not so.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'could be...could be...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah! There is fair Tilion starting his journey across the sky.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'AAAH!! Crazy kid! Watch where you're going!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I am intrigued by the idea of the Narsilion. Do you know if it is actually written or if he just refers to it here?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'that I don't know - until recently, I didn't know there was anything besides hobbit, lotr and the silmarillion'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sigh. I shall keep looking. I have not yet found it.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Last Question!'
[To lmbbookclub] '7. The Valar are dismayed by the attack on Tilion. Their response is the Nurtale Valinoreva, the hiding of Valinor. What are the possible repercussions of this act?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Just an aside... I do wish there were moon phases in this game instead of a full moon every night...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'in the grand scheme of things to adjust in this game, I'll admit, that one is rather lower on my list...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'FIX HOUSING FIX HOUSING FIX HOUSING FOR THE LOVE OF CRIMINY!!!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Agreed. It just bugs me.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, housing first!'
[lmbbookclub] Luceemorilindariel: ''
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but yes, it would be nice to get a less...weird...moon cycle'
[lmbbookclub] Luceemorilindariel: 'lol'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Welcome, Lucee!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sorry...where were we?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'right, the hiding of Valinor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, the hiding...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well...possible repercussions...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'As you were talking about Morgoth, I was thinking there are actually two hidings in the game. Morgoth hides from the Sun, and the Valar hide Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '1 - if hiding valinor would protect them from Morgoth, than does that mean the Valar cannot leave, or never come back?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or have they accounted for the drop in power of Morgoth?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ulmo still journeys. That we know from the Gondolin tales.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '2 - is it possible that MORGOTh could still get there, but the hiding of valinor will protect it from his minions?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm not sure if Orome travels still. Yavanna does not if I remember rightly.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '3 - basically means any elf that leaves (or is still in middle earth) will never be able to enter...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Right. A punishment for the Noldor and for the Sindar and Nandor who never got there.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'with, of course the notable exception'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm not sure when the House of Mandos became a way back to Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and 4 - sorta like...hows that phrase?...locking the barn doors AFTER the cows have left?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! An interesting conundrum.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'oh, NOW you want to build a mighty fortress in Valinor...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'by the way, Ungoliant was hiding in the far south of Valinor all that time, and they never knew it...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'wonder if there might be other crazy evil things lurking in hidden corners of Valinor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Why close the doors? Why sever the connection so they can't help the Eldar or the humans yet to come any more?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, like you said, its possible that the Valar themselves can still come and go at will...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hmmm. I thought in the last chapter we read that Ungoliant had gone into Thingol's realm. Is that after the creation of Sun and Moon?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and two, and this would be unusually self-observant of the valar, given their behavior so far...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but perhaps they're starting to realize that their direct interference is often...counter-productive'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'no, BEFORE the eating of the trees - she was hiding in the south of Valinor...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Perhaps that's it. I think that is so.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The closing of Valinor is after the creation of Sun and Moon, though.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'After the attack of the trees, she moves into the...i think the eastern mountains of Beleriand, or the northern...something like that'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So she is not there when they close it down. But you are suggesting other evils could be?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Perhaps the coming of the Sun has driven those things out as now there is no darkness there.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'my point was, that if Ungoliant had already been in Valinor beneath the notice of the valar, maybe there are some other horrible chittery things still lurking in valinor once they close the doors...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'More spiders!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'could be - it was just an idea...spiders...wolves...shadows...spirits of flame...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'icky tentacled things...weird bat-winged women...who knows'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ooh.'
[lmbbookclub] Saker: 'Hobbits....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I hate those bat girls...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hobbits wouldn't be hiding! They'd be sitting on the rocks having tea.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yeah, the Merroval were really about the creepiest thing I'd seen in LOTRO when I first set eyes on them...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So Wrong.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Funny, if you actually watch the moon, you can see it moving.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It ticks like a clock...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup, i've seen that before...almost gave myself a taste of vertigo doing it...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'no moon here at thorin's hall though...must still be below the horizon'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I had to move away from the kinhouse to see it.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but yes, the hiding of valinor - possibly more significant as time goes on'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The Valar do set up several levels of barricades. The enchanted isles, the mountain walls of the Pelori, And the guards of Calacirya, which they leave open for the Eldar in Eldamar.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'as it might reflect a change in the way the Valar are going to intereact with the world of men...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye. The only one to pass these barricates is Earendil.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I wonder then, when the Eldar get into the ships to sail into the west, how do they get there?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'all of my possible answers are flippant and ultimately unhelpful'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The Valar do deal less with men than with the elves, though Tuor seems an exception.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I don't remember if Beren saw any help either. I shall watch for that when we read of him and Luthien.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, another grand discussion, Captain! I thank you!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'caffeine....wearing off....personality...fading...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Gaiagil, I always enjoy discussing, and often arguing, with you :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I don't have a reading for today. If you want to skip it, it's fine with me.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I need breakfast!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i enjoy healthy, spirited debate...and I appreciate that you do too'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I love debating with you! You always come at it with knowledge.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup - theres nothing quite so compelling about this chapter that I need to read it...and we have limited audience, today...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So sad!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Tilion has nearly escaped my screen again!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'He moves very quickly.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'actually, *rarely* with knowledge, except for what I've found immediately in the Silmarillion - but I'll settle for some insight, more than a little opinion...and a decent amount of makin-up-stuff-as-i-go-along'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yeah - the passage of time, and the curiously subtle compression of distance, could be distracting in this game, if you let yourself concentrate on it'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'll have to disagree with you there, Captain! You always point to relevant passages. Your interpretations are always grounded in the text! I teach college English and know when I'm dealing with a smart one!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, yes, well thank you - and my 4.5 years of english studies would be tragically wasted if I couldn't manage at least that much'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but thank you :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I have to admit that I've never really watched the moon before. I was just curious as we were discussing its creation.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'd like, at some point, to encourage Galenhir to have another starwatchers night...i couldn't be at the last one...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but I'd like to have a chance to go over the visible constellations and their meanings/names/origins'
[lmbbookclub] Luceemorilindariel: 'Starwatcher night precious? Can I go?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'if I have any say in the date/time, SOITENLY!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, I've been studying that a bit. It would be great to have one.'
[lmbbookclub] Saker: 'Skywatcher night?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'no, Skywalker night...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Let's all send Galen mails...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'we're going to re-enact all the star wars movies here in LOTRO'
[lmbbookclub] Saker: 'Sounds great!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'At Ales and Tales!'
[lmbbookclub] Saker: 'uh, the stars that is, not the star wars'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'noooo! not at Ales and Tales! thats why I missed the last one!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Ales and Tales got one already...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Funny thing is, you could recast those stories in Middle Earth and they would work...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'now we need one for the non-AnT-crew'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, I am off. Time for me to get breakfast and start my day. Thank you again, Andeon, for a wonderful discussion.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'good night Gaiagil - and all our book club members!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its time for me to go back to sleep for 2 or 3 hours, and then *actually* start my day'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sleep well.'


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