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Lennidhren
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re: LMB Book Club, July 31: The Silmarillion "Of the coming

"Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor"

Book Club will be on hiatus next Sunday as I will be at National Junior Classical League convention with Latin Club students and have no idea if I will have internet access at all, and wouldn't be free at 4 if I did...so we will continue with chapter 3 the following Sunday, July 31. That will be the day after I get back from convention, so I will try not to sleep through Book Club!

This will be the thread for questions/comments as you read, and for discussion topics when I get around to them.


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re: LMB Book Club, July 31: The Silmarillion "Of the coming

Today's discussion topics:

(1) This is a chapter of firsts for the Firstborn Children of Iluvatar: The first thing they see - starlight; the first thing they hear - water flowing and falling over stone. Why do you think Tolkien associated the Elves so strongly with starlight and flowing water?

(2) Now we get into another section of Names Overload (we can blame the Elves for this since they were the ones who started the whole language thing), so let's pause to clarify. What is meant by these names: Quendi, Eldar, Avari, Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri, Calaquendi, Umanyar, Moriquendi, Nandor? For those of us with Elven characters, can you determine which of these names would apply to your elf?

(3) Compare/contrast the breeding of the Orcs by Melkor with the making of the Dwarves by Aule...

(4) The Valar voted to summon the Elves to Valinor for their own protection and for fellowship; but what if they had instead decided to leave them "free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts"?


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re: LMB Book Club, July 31: The Silmarillion "Of the coming

Dang! I got wrapped up in making a Crickhollow alt and missed this.... I think I left my brain in Disneyland. I hope it is going on some fun rides....

Gaiagil


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re: LMB Book Club, July 31: The Silmarillion "Of the coming

It was a bit of a quiet group with both Gaiagil and Andeon missing. :-) You know how us English majors love to talk...Nevertheless, here is the transcript of this meeting!

Also as you'll see at the end of the log, for next week we will read *two* chapters (4-5) because ch 4 is only two pages long!

### Chat Log: OW/Books 07/31 04:05 PM ###
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'test'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'that run-down plaza south of town?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep, south of the docks'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, let's get started with general impressions of this chapter...anyone have comments?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Well - You'd think the Valar would be a bit more concerned for the elves since the Evil incarnate Melkor is out running free'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Do you mean before or after they find the elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Both!'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'My general impression is that this chapter is all about destiny and free will. It's Paradise Lost by Tolkien.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Mandos held them back'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Several times it says that, er Orome left the Elves alone to head back to talk to Manwe - he left them undefended'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'so say they who dwell in Eresea'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'And earlier Melkor already was corrupting the elves'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Before Orome arrived'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well then, what *do* the Valar do to defend the elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'They finally attacked Utummno'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'And put Melkor in chains'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye...and note how little the elves really know of that war, since the Valar took care to shelter them from its effects...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Quiet bunch today. :-) All right, on to the first topic...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This is a chapter of firsts for the Firstborn Children of Iluvatar: The first thing they see - starlight; the first thing they hear - water flowing and falling over stone.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Why do you think Tolkien associated the Elves so strongly with starlight and flowing water?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Innocence / purity'
[lmbbookclub] Cojak: 'thats what i was gonna say'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Also'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Also, perhaps, the starlight as a symbol of eternity'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I think a tie-in with when the elves were reported to be seen in these latter days - at night, and by streams and pools. Also because of his concept of teh Music.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Starlight is a thing of beauty that exists in darkness and gloom, and gives it light. Water is a powerful force that shapes things slowly.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'I find it interesting that over the course of the Elves' story they get less aligned with water and more with flowers. The stars seem to stay all ther way through.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, the Eldar remain a people of the starlight!'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Also, while water is a force of power, ultimately all bodies of water find their way again to the sea.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'And thus fade from the land they were born from'
[To lmbbookclub] 'From our opening chapters, who's associated with that water besides the elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Ever does the sound of the sea hold a power over their hearts - remember Legolas mourning that he had now seen and heard the Sea?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Ulmo, Uinnen and Osse'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'And Goldberry wink'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye - and remember that Ulmo is marked out as the Vala who never forgot Middle-earth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So even when the rest of them retire to Valinor and seem quite hands-off, maybe the association of Elves with flowing water is an association with Ulmo as one who knows their troubles...'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Of course, the starlight is also a symbol of one of the Vala, as streaming water is for Ulmo'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Varda!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'True! And the Vala Varda/Elbereth remains the most revered of the elves...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'As we can see even in LOTR'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Elbereth Gilthoniel, silivren penna miriel!'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Even the mention of her name hallows things, and banishes the darkness. (I was very tempted to capitalize "her" there)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Quasi-prototype-foreshadowing of the Blessed Theotokos, a number of scholars have written'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Good call. Of course, that's more Orthodox than RC.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And she is the one that's said to always hear those calling for help from Middle-earth, as I recall...so in a way perhaps the stars are a symbol of hope. Elves can look up at them, remembering their earliest days awakening under that light, and know that'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Varda can hear their prayers...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'well, I'm LCMS wink tongue out'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'as Sam said "above all Shadow's rides the Sun (and the stars)'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'What chapter is that?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sam's comment? That'd be from LOTR...'
[lmbbookclub] Tinki: '.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'remember when on the edge of Mordor, the clouds parted and he saw Gil Estel/Vingelot the Silmaril turned star shining above middle-earth adn remembered that they were part of the same story, still?'
[lmbbookclub] Tinki: 'got it running now :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yay Tinki!'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Ah I see'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, moving on to the next topic:'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now we get into another section of Names Overload (we can blame the Elves for this since they were the ones who started the whole language thing), so let's pause to clarify.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What is meant by these names: Quendi, Eldar, Avari, Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri, Calaquendi, Umanyar, Moriquendi, Nandor?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'LOL'
[To lmbbookclub] 'For those of us with Elven characters, can you determine which of these names would apply to your elf?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, taking them one at a time!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What are the Quendi?'
[lmbbookclub] Tinki: 'different cultures of Elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Nattering Ones'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Lol, Godwineson'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye Tinki, these are all different names for elves'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Elves call themselves that'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Distinguishing them by migratory patterns, basically!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, this is the Elves' own name for themselves. But what does Quendi mean? I like how Godwine puts it...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: '<ponders> Herds of elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'The Speakers'
[To lmbbookclub] 'An interesting thing about this name for me as a Latin teacher: It reminds me of the word loquentes which would mean "speaking ones" in Latin'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'hmmmm, never put that past "the leaf-mold" of Tolien's mind'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The form looking closer to the Elvish one - loquendi - would actually be a gerund meaning "of speaking"'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Quendi and Sindarin -are- IE languages'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Exactly, Godwine! He knew Latin; I do wonder if loquentes had any influence on Quendi...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So, Quendi, anyway, = ALL Elves, by their own naming. Next, what does Eldar mean?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'And the neighbors of the Suomi, the Lets and Lats have odd linguistic sharings with the Latins.'
[lmbbookclub] Safrandal: 'Was Tolkien making a hidden jibe to Latinites?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'never put it past him.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The people of the stars'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Eldar were the Elves who set out to go to Valinor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep! And where did the name Eldar come from?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Orome'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep! Interestingly, it's an Elvish word though that Orome picked from their language, not from...whatever the Valar might speak, if they have a separate language from Elvish ones.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Are all of these statues of Elbereth?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I suppose maybe the Valar never had a language until they needed to pick up the Elvish ones to communicate with the Eldar'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'I've always imagined the Vala to commune, not speak.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Here in the pavilion, Godwineson? Good question...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I don't know what VAlinoran was like, but language goes all the way back to the begining of the Ainulindale if not earlier'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Also interesting is that Eldar was coined by Orome for the whole Elvish race, but later the name stuck *only* to those who followed him back to/towards Valinor.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It's like the ones who didn't make the trip...just got dropped from Valarian memory.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Or they didn' tkeep the name for themselves, maybe never heard it as they hid.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Remember though, Godwine, that the Ainulindale and all the rest are the stories told from Elvish perspective'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So the dialogue/language that we hear Valar using before the Elves awake may just be how the Elves interpreted whatever means of communication the Valar had'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'true, but remember the Athrabeth. :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Have I read the Athrabeth? *tries to remember* Explain please?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I can't imagine Tolkien not having language with the Godhead, or with any abstract-thinking creatures such as the Ainur'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'That is in Morgoth's Ring, a finished piece for the Silmarillion that CJRT left out, where Finrod has a discussion with a mortal woman about the shadow that lies upon Men, and she tells him of the Old Hope that Iluvatar would one day forgive them and mend'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK then, that's one I haven't read yet. We shall have to add it to the list for future book club selections...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'the world and Finrod reasons that to do that, Iluvatar would have toy remain outside of EA, but at the same time enter it as one of the Children of Iluvatar to pull that off.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'So forgiveness by the godhead would be depending on the godhead descending into manhood? That sounds familiar.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It does sound like an interesting book to add to our future selections list But for now...back to Silmarillion...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next term: What does Avari signify?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'The Unwilling, I believe.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'The ones who *didn't* go'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Correct'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Unwilling'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I always wonder what became of the Avari..."they were sundared in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past..."'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyone remember if that meeting again after many ages is in Tolkien's writings? I can't think what it references, if it is.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Avari include the Nandor in Beleriand that are certainly present in very little contact in teh first age'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No, the Nandor branched off from the Teleri according to this chapter...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So the Nandor are Eldar rather than Avari'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'hmm. I need to keep re-reading, don't I.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'The Avari refused to set out at all. There's differentnames for those that didn't cross the Anduin, Misty Mountains, Blue Mountains, or the Endless Sea.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'They -are- the same as the Green Elvesw of Ossiriand, right?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I just noted the Nandor particularly on this reading because I think that's what Lenn would be :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Maybe it meant if they died - they'd end up in the Halls of Mandos and eventually reborn back to Valinor?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Having read somewhere that the native populations (non-Noldor ones) of Lothlorien and Mirkwood/Greenwood the Great, would be made up of Nandor'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'well, and pardon my saying so, but you seem much more (to this Rider of Rohan) high-elf and migthy like than say, Horazia'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And I *think* the elves of Ossiriand were of the Nandor, but I'm not sure. Maybe a different branch of the Teleri.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think that comes up in a future chapter'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'if I recall, the Nandor were those Elves that lived in Ossiriand and crossed back into Eriador and further parts west before the end of the First Age.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Sindar are subdivisions then of Nandor? and the Silven elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien, are they Avari but affected by the leadership of Sindar and Noldro?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Lenn's no high-elf, though. She was born in Lothlorien and has never been to Valinor like the Noldor have.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sindar I think refers just to the language - not a branch of the elves'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And if the Lorien/Mirkwood Silvan elves are Nandor as I think is the case - they would be a branch of Teleri rathe rthan Avari, in that they started on the great joourney west but never finished it'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I suspect we'll get there eventually in this book'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Khizli - I think you're correct about the Nandor/Ossiriand/furthe rmigrations'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This is the point where it really gets confusing with all the elf-terms. Those Nandor keep moving around too much to pin them down!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next term though - Vanyar? Who are they?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The blondes who dwell upon Taniquetel'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Those who lived in the light of the Tree and at the foot of the Vala.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'The ones most anxious to head West'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: '(Trees. Plural)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! And who was their leader? And their, well, patron Valar?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Manwe'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Leader of Vanyar is Ingwe'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: '(afk for a minute)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye. And they were the smallest kindred of the elves that went west...and they are the ones that never came back.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'except as part of teh Host of the Valar'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'IIRC'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes, that comes later. Ingwe must not have went with that host, since it says he never looked again upon Middle-earth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next, who are the Noldor?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Gnomes'
[To lmbbookclub] 'For one thing they're the elves we're going to hear most about in this book'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: '"The Deep Elves - the friends of Aule"'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Folk of Finwe'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The Silmarillion really is overall the story of the Noldor more than of *all* the elves. And most specifically, the story of the house of Feanor...but that we'll save for later.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'You'd think if they were so friendly to Aule - then they'd be more friendly to his creation, the Dwarves'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Black-haired, grey-eyed - except for Finrod and Galadriel, who's mother was of the Vanyar'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sibling rivalry perhaps, Jonathson'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next, who are the Teleri?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Sea Elves'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Greatest of the 3 groups, too'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Who settled on Tol Erresea, which in earlier conceptions was later brought back to Middle-earth to become the Isle of Britain'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye - biggest and also slowest!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'logistics'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Didn't help that Elwe got lost'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sure, it takes longer to travel with a big group. But also they were less willing to get to their destination - they were enjoying the journey too much to hurry'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'bunch a tree-huggers wink'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Bueller?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Khizli? Jonathan?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Hmm?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'More terms...how about the Calaquendi?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Lios-alfar'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'More confusing names - these were the 3 groups who seen the light of the 2 trees in Valinor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep. And so the Calaquendi are one part of the Eldar. The other part of the Eldar are called Umanyar, which means what?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Cala means light'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Everyone else :)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'IE negation prefix, so those not of Aman'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'like the Greek a-'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well not strictly *everyone* since there are also the Avari who never started Westward. So the Umanyar are the ones who started west but never finished the journey...they got lost in Beleriand or Eriador and just stuck around...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And then we have the term Moriquendi which includes what groups of elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Orcses wink (not really) Isn't it a synonymn for the Avari?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Those who never seen the light of the trees'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Jonathson's right - it includes the Avari who never made the journey, and also the Umanyar who never completed the journey.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So Mor = dark as Cala = light'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: '(back from afk)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'but, by seeing Melian, some of those are Grey-elves, not MOriquendi, right?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye - next chapter we'll refine these definitions even further with Thigol and the grey elves :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'And Elwe wrapped himself in that light and became Greycloak - Singollo.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'ahh/1'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So the next term is Nandor, which we've discussed some already - anything to add to its definition? Who are the Nandor?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'They were Teleri who stayed a bit East of the Misty Mountains'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They really seem to wander a lot...south down the Anduin first, then later soe of them wander on west to Beleriand, and I think some do head back east to settle in Lorien/Mirkwood'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They loved and lived near water, and had great knowledge of living things moreso than the other groups of elves'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now that we've sorted out all the migratory elf patterns, let's look at the last part of this question:'
[To lmbbookclub] 'For those of us with Elven characters, can you determine which of these names would apply to your elf?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Were they the ones who taught the Ents to speak?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...I'm not sure about that, Godwine. Teaching language seems like a Noldorin thing to do, but that might have happened beforee the Noldor returned to Middle-earth'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So the Nandor are likely candidates, in all their wanderings'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'With the ents living in Beleriand at the time, from Treebeard's song, and from the attack on the Dwarves from the forests of Ossiriand'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now as for the elf-sorting: As I said earlier, I think Lenn would be Nandor...if that is the group that first settled Lorien. She's not a high-elf (Calaquendi) but she is an old one - born in the early days of Lorien's elven settlers'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The same applies to my other elf Glingil, since that's Lennidhren's sister'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now Gaiagil - she is Noldor, though I forget which of the sons of Feanor is her father. Maglor maybe?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Have we met Glindil?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Surprisingly, I actually don't have an Elf character yet.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I alt to Glingil now and then to check mail. :-) She's my RK, whom I have not played much yet. She's level 15 or so.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyone else have an elf character?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'There isn't much recorded of the Silven-tongue, is there/'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Pre-Sindarin you mean? I don't know anything about what the silvan elves spoke before they learned Sindarin'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Well - I have several alts - but they're still getting their feet wet.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right - let's go on to topic three then: Compare/contrast the breeding of the Orcs by Melkor with the making of the Dwarves by Aule...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'None of the elven-males in game look male-enough for me to have made an alt one of them'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'One is mking from scratch with teh souls from Eru, the other is toturing and genetically-manipulating elves'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Also, Ents and Trolls?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Trolls weren't made from ents so far as I know. Which is why when Sauron is not running them remotyely, they are very stupid. But they were made in mockery of the Ents - the Augustinian view of evil prevails in Tolkien's works'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'The chapter specifically says Melkor could no longer create since his rebellion'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Right - that he could no longer make anything with life of its own, so he had to corrupt other living tings'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'and maybe not before, since that type of creation is exactly what Morgoth was looking for in the Void, but that only comes from Eru.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Whereas...what about Aule?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Even the Dwarves were just puppets until Eru gave them souls.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Though you might say they had the "semblance of life" which this chapter says Melkor couldn't manage even that since his rebellion...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, on to the final topic...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The Valar voted to summon the Elves to Valinor for their own protection and for fellowship; but what if they had instead decided to leave them "free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their'
[To lmbbookclub] 'but what if they had instead decided to leave them "free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts"?'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Good question'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Mandos even says about that decision " So it is Doomed" Rather ominous'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Not all of MOrgoth's creatures had been dealth with. Sauron was still missing. There were balrogs, and of course orcs, werewolves and vampires, as well as fell beasts. IT was dangerous - and the Elves had not yet been taught by the Valar. The Valar would h'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'had to have left Aman and dwell with the Elves in Endor, far from the two trees'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That "doomed" comment from Mandos would just mean it was destined - not that it was doomed to fail or anything'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Right, Tolkien liked the ooled menins of words. Deem is a tense of 'to doom''
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'yes, that Doomed just means Fated'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'or judged'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'determined, etc.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I wonder too why the Valar didn't see the third option - insstead of either gathering the Elves out of Middle earth to Aman, or leaving them in Middle-earth to improve it on their own...couldn't the Valar have moved back to Middle-earth to help them do so?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They are so hands-off once they've retired to Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Perhaps they could create lands Undying only once, and they would have lost their divinity in the hither lands?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I don't see any indication that they would lose their divinity...some of them do wander there (Orome, Ulmo) without losing it'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Melian stayed with the elves, too - so why didn't more appear to help?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Wander, sure - but it's not their home. Can you imagine the Halls of Mandos this side of the Western Sea?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The lands didn't make them ndying, they made the lands undying by being there, as the elves tried to explain to Ar Pharazon. But they would have left the Two Trees behind, and they didn'twant to'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah, that's a good point, Godwin. Arda is still in starlight...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, we are winding down...any last thoughts on this chapter?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'I thought it was a nice touch that the first thing the elves seen when they awoken were stars in the sky'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The geneologis that I think are in th back are very helpful in remembering this stuff, which we will need to do in the future'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Which were also put there as a direct challenge to Melkor sitting there nice and safe in his lair'
[To lmbbookclub] 'How about readalouds? Anyone up for reading today?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Or are you all ready to head out for SNS instead?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I need to head RL for a while'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right. I think we will do without the readalouds tonight then...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So that wraps up this week's meeting! On to the next chapter for next week! Thank you all for joining us today, hope you enjoyed the discussion'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'How many chaptes?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Chapter 4 is very small'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed it is...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm leaning towards sticking with the one chapter though. I think we will still find plenty to discuss in it'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Or, we could do ch 4-5. What do you all tink?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Such a quiet bunch. Or everyone's already logged off? :-) All right, we'll make it chapter 4-5 for next week. See you then!'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: '<waves>'


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