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Hollyberye
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session XI, 1 August 2015



Attendees: Hollyberye, Mornawen, Mithmenelien, Anthemisa, Byrcha, Lhinnthel, Elimraen, Corulin, Balom, Malphos, and a brief appearance from special guest star Aegthil


Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club. We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to complete our discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien, in this, our eleventh session. All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions. Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub. As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points. However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay, I am going to be providing a bit of chapter summary first, but I promise there are loads of discussion points.'

Chapter XVIII: The Death of Turin

Hollyberye: 'As Glaurung dies, Turin recovers somewhat and passes into slumber, but is woken by the bitter cold. He is puzzled to find his hand bound, yet he was left abandoned. Turin recognizes the sword Gurthang and leaves the dragon corpse, looking forward to the gentle hands of Niniel and the good skill of Brandir. He is greeted with terror as the folk think he is a ghost. They turn on Brandir for falsely reporting Turin's death. Turin speaks decently to Brandir, and asks about Niniel. Brandir finally admits Niniel is dead. Dorlas' wife cries out not to heed him, for he falsely reported Turin's death. This prompts Turin to accost Brandir: 'My death was good tidings?' And Turin calls him club-foot and accuses him of trying to slay them with foul words, since he cannot yield a weapon. Brandir screams in anger that Niniel is dead. 'I saw her leap.''

Hollyberye: 'Brandir goes on to say that Niniel fled from Turin for she is Nienor, daughter of Hurin. Turin seizes and shakes Brandir, even as he feels the feet of doom overtaking him. Turin raves that Nienor his sister dwells in the Hidden Kingdom and is safe. Brandir repeats what Glaurung the Dragon said to Niniel. He laughs mirthlessly that men speak the truth on their deathbed, even dragons do. Lastly he says, 'Turin son of Hurin, a curse unto your kin and all that harbour you!' Turin, with a fell light in his eyes, relates that it was Brandir who told Niniel his secret real name, who brought her to the malice of the dragon, stood by and let her die, publishes this horror and gloats. Brandir sees his own death coming and does not quail and says death will take him to Niniel, whom he loved. With the powerful words that Brandir shall sleep with the Worm as his soul mate and rot in one darkness, Turin smites Brandir to his death.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you think of how this played out? Was anything at all surprising?'

Elimraen: 'I'm a bit confused about the reference to 'beyond the sea' if they are all human?'

Hollyberye: 'Well that is a good point--perhaps the race of men also thought after they died they went into the beyond.'

Byrcha: 'good point, not sure if it shows up elsewhere where exactly Men go after dying'

Hollyberye: 'I know Gandalf had that heartening discussion with Pippin, remember?'

Elimraen: 'Ok. Yay research :)'

Hollyberye: 'I personally though this was one of the most well-written passages of the entire book...do you agree or disagree?'

Byrcha: 'when I glanced back over this, I was struck by the realization that it would be Brandir's word re Turin/Nienor, so how would he believe him?'

Mornawen: 'Don't Men go to Mandos, too? And then onwards. I'm vaguely remembering separate halls in Mandos.'

Hollyberye: 'I was struck by how Turin's good thoughts toward Brandir did a complete reversal on the instant he heard the dire news.'

Elimraen: 'Byrcha I think that it's more than just taking Brandir's word for it - he senses it's true? I found the passage about 'the feet of his doom' very powerful'

Elimraen: 'Thanks Mornawen :) I haven't read enough to know.'

Hollyberye: 'Mandos was the judge of the Valar, right? I mean he sat in judgment?'

Byrcha: 'Yes, Mandos was the judge as I recall it'

Mornawen: 'Yes, he would hold souls in his halls, or let them return.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought Turin's words at the end to Brandir were shocking--that Brandir would be the soul mate of Glaurung'

Byrcha: 'Aye, Turin did seem to know the truth, and though it mentioned the dragon's spell being lifted, he didn't seem to have the same revelation which Nienor had had'

Hollyberye: 'Also, when Brandir curses Turin at the end it is almost as if he curses himself'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, his doom is a palpable thing to him then he hears Brandirs words'

Elimraen: 'I think Turin's anger was a last-ditch effort at protecting himself from the truth sad'

Hollyberye: 'Well the dragon didn't get the chance to speak to Turin either'

Byrcha: 'shocking yes, there would be few curses worse than being like unto Glaurung'

Hollyberye: 'and being his mate ... shudder'

Mornawen: 'I think Turin just finally reached his breaking point.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and earlier I was shocked that Turin would stoop so low as to call Brandir club-foot'

Mornawen: 'No more running away, no more reinventing himself... this is it.'

Hollyberye: 'The heroic man of the last chapter would not have done that...Yes, Mornawen'

Byrcha: 'yes, he pays the price for hiding his name once again'

Mornawen: 'Right, he wouldn't have, Holly.'

Hollyberye: 'All that heroism completely cast away'

Hollyberye: 'Turin runs witless through the Wild Woods until he encounters Mablung, chief hunstman of Thingol and eleven other Elven huntsmen. When they learn that Turin slew the dragon they say he will be praised forever among Elves and Men.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. As we have enocuntered elves again in the text, I will bring up this--Mithmenelien posed a very interesting question in our forum: It is described very well how the different kinds of humans look like, but not so much with the elves, does anyone maybe know about this from other sources? For example, is there a specific way the different elves of Doriath, Nargothrond, Gondolin and Dor-lomin tends to look like, then it comes to hair colors and the like?'

Hollyberye: 'I researched this. Turin's coloring was dark, resembling the Noldorin Elves--brown or black haired. The Vanyar were golden haired; the Teleri silver or dark haired. Grey-eyed often.'

Anthemisa: 'I only know their high peripheral vision, elves are interesting.'

Hollyberye: 'Generally described as taller and more beautiful than the race of men.'

Hollyberye: 'Ohhh high peripheral vision? I did not know that'

Anthemisa: 'You mentioned earlier, they see much far, and wider than all other races, maybe that's not the correct word to describe'

Byrcha: 'I recall the various physical descriptions somewhere, but can never remember which Elves lived where'

Hollyberye: 'can anyone else add to that. Very keen eye sight--yes Tolkien established that well. Also never ever over weight I think!'
Mornawen: 'You all are so lovely, and will never age in appearance...'

Elimraen: 'Luthien was dark haired and grey eyed, and she was of Doriath - but I don't know which group they fall into!'

Byrcha: 'there was a mix, right? Thingol was not the same group as the others in Doriath?'

Hollyberye: 'I think that is right'

Byrcha: 'let alone that Luthien's mother was a Maiar'

Elimraen: 'Oh right'

Hollyberye: 'well that was a very interesting question'

Elimraen: 'It was!'

Hollyberye: 'It always upsets me to see elves depicted as cruel and ugly in other books. I think, "but Tolkien said they were beautiful and wise!!!" Although we know from Saeros and others they have their flaws'

Byrcha: 'oh, and only two of them ever had beards'

Hollyberye: 'which two???'

Mornawen: 'Cirdan and ??'

Balom: 'I don't know non-Tolkien elves, my imagination is only full of nice and lovely elves'

Hollyberye: 'yes lack of facial hair is a big feature'

Byrcha: 'Cirdan I think. Can't think of the other'

Hollyberye: 'Was he the boatman??'

Mithmenelien: 'Ooh, thank all so much! I was wondering about that as I was imagining what the different elves looked like while reading the book!'

Hollyberye: 'Who took them away?'

Elimraen: 'Yes :)'

Byrcha: 'Lord of the Grey Havens'

Mithmenelien: 'He is the one building the ships to the west right?'

Byrcha: 'Gave Gandalf his ring'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I forgot about the ring, thank you'

Byrcha: 'aye, he's the ship builder for ... several thousand years it seems'

Hollyberye: 'very ancient'

Elimraen: 'Yes, because he sends messengers in this book, and also to the Council of Elrond I think?'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, he even has a little bit of a mention in this book :)'

Byrcha: 'aye, he did send messengers'

Anthemisa: 'Cirdan and Beleg, google says, two of them had beards'

Hollyberye: 'Now I cannot imagine Beleg with a beard!'

Mornawen: 'No, me either.'

Elimraen: 'I don't think it was this Beleg'

Hollyberye: 'Turin asks for news of his kin and learns they went in the wild to seek him. As it becomes clear to Turin that it was indeed, his sister with whom he fell in love and wed, he claims he was blind, groping since childhood in the dark mist of Morgoth. Turin runs wildly back to the waters where Niniel sprang to her death and cries that he shall not foul the waters, 'for all my deeds have been ill, and the latest the worst.' He draws forth Gurthang and speaks to it as a living object. He asks if it will slay Turin Turambar swiftly? The sword answers in a cold voice, that it will drink his blood that he may forget the blood of his master Beleg. The black blade takes his life.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Describe your emotions surrounding this last exchange of Turin's with the sword. Could Tolkien have created any death more fitting or dramatic?'

Byrcha: 'Did the sword speak earlier in the book, or only here? I found that fascinating'

Hollyberye: 'Only here I believe. When Beleg died I don't think he spoke, just changed colors and so on'

Byrcha: '(add that to the Tolkien list: talking sword, talking dog, talking wallet.)'

Hollyberye: 'Oh yes, Byrcha!!!'

Mithmenelien: 'which wallet speaks?'

Elimraen: 'A troll's purse in The Hobbit, Mith :)'

Mornawen: 'Oh, I'd forgotten that, hehe!'

Mithmenelien: 'ok, forgot about that'

Hollyberye: 'I felt the talking sword was used very effectively--finally it was serving its foul purpose--Beleg had been warned'

Byrcha: 'interesting that the exchange with the sword is like tying up the loose ends of fate for Turin'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, exactly, Byrcha'

Lhinnthel: 'For me, the passage where Turin exclaims "I am blind.. blind since childhood" etc was one of the most emotional parts of the entire book. I fianlly felt so badly for him and all he has been through with his doom ;'('

Mithmenelien: 'I really liked the interaction with the sword, it was very powerful and seemed right in a way'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Lhinn, I thought that was powerfully written'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, this was a very traumatic chapter to read'

Elimraen: 'Yes, his death is so desperate and awful.'

Hollyberye: 'In the illustration of Turin with the sword, it seems too big for him to use it on himself, but of course it did the job'

Mornawen: 'He'd prop it towards his chest, at an angle.'

Byrcha: 'which illustration?'

Mithmenelien: 'which illustration are you referring to?'

Hollyberye: 'To answer my own question, I can't imagine Tolkien creating a more fitting and dramatic death--on a par with Boromir's--which made me weep--this did not make me weep'

Hollyberye: 'There is an illustration of Turin's final moments, he is on his knees on the rock, holding the sword straight up'

Byrcha: 'I had trouble feeling sorry for him also, after all the foolish choices he had made. sad'

Hollyberye: 'It isn't in the book. I saw it elsewhere'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed, that is how I felt for most of the book, the final chapter did bring out some of my pity for him though!'

Hollyberye: 'The Elves and Men gather around Turin and the slain dragon. Mablung expresses grave guilt that he also slew with words the one that he loved. The lift Turin and discover the blade broken.'

Mornawen: 'I did feel sorry for him, even though killing Brandir was terrible.'

Lhinnthel: 'It's just so very tragic!'

Hollyberye: 'They burn the dragon but bury Turin in a mound with the shattered sword. The minstrels of the Elves and Men make lament telling of the valor of Turin and the beauty of Niniel and the Elves carve runes on a great greay stone, Turin Turambar Dagnir Glaurunga and Ninenor Niniel'

Byrcha: 'he is more of a victim here than earlier though, well except for Brandir (not that Brandir isn't awful also)'

Hollyberye: '...but it is not known where Nienor's body was taken in the cold waters.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you make of that epithet, Túrin, Conqueror of Fate, Slayer of Glaurung...was he really a conqueror of fate??'

Mornawen: 'It seemed like the thought of Morwen and Nienor being safe in Doriath had sustained him, deep inside.'

Mithmenelien: 'no he was not in my opinion'

Byrcha: 'same. really conquered by fate in the end'

Balom: 'Agrees, Mithmenelien, no...'

Hollyberye: 'I thought it was horribly ironic as an epithet'

Elimraen: 'No, I don't think so either'

Mornawen: 'Ironic, yes.'

Malphos: 'He named himself that way, and this is a kind of respect to the dead. even if it was more the other way around finally, yes, Byrcha'

Mithmenelien: 'Another likeness with Aragorn, both have broken powerful swords'

Malphos: '(or more all the time)'

Byrcha: 'curious also that the Elves carved the name Turambar, when he didn't go by that until after he was in Hithlum(?)'

Hollyberye: 'I thought so too'

Hollyberye: 'Why didn't it say Turin son of Hurin?'

Elimraen: 'Maybe that's too sad and emphasizes the curse too much'

Mornawen: 'Maybe he deserved his own fame?'

Byrcha: 'well, sadder still to use both of Nienor's names'

Hollyberye: 'They thought he would be renowned for slaying the dragon'

Malphos: 'He was an icon by himself, not seen as deeds in a line of descendants maybe?'

Hollyberye: 'yes, tragic'

Mithmenelien: 'maybe they added that name after they talked to the men of Brethil. and it was the last name if was know as'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the Elves and Men were working together on this cleanup.'

Hollyberye: 'Then the narration continues to tell us Hurin is released from bondage by Morgoth...he searches for this burial mound, espies a a ragged figure, as she casts back her hood, he realizes the awful truth. The hideous, broken figure is none other than Morwen. Asking the unanswerable, 'How did she find him?', Morwen dies in Hurin's arms.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does this make you believe in the power of Morgoth's curse?'

Byrcha: 'actually, now that I think about it, Hurin defeated the curse on that very last page ...'

Mornawen: 'How do you mean?'

Byrcha: 'Morgoth released him to do more evil or somesuch ...'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, it did say that'

Byrcha: 'and Morwen asked for news of how Turin/Nienor had found each other ...'

Hollyberye: 'Although I took it to mean to find Morwen in her hideous state'

Lhinnthel: 'The end was so bittersweet. Then I remember that Hurin has had to sit and endure watchign all of htis unfold - his family being ripped apart and I am reminded how truly terrible Morgoth is.'

Byrcha: 'But Hurin refrained from telling her, letting her die in peace'

Hollyberye: 'Oh--superb point'

Mornawen: 'Ah, yes!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, that is a wonderful interpretation'

Lhinnthel: 'Ye, very good point indeed!'

Hollyberye: 'And she would have thought they just met as brother and sister'

Byrcha: 'telling in a way also, though unelaborated upon, that Hurin had been imprisoned the whole time, watching all this, yet apparently never gave in'

Elimraen: 'That is a good point. Her saying 'they are lost' was the hardest thing to read in this whole book.'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin is wholly admirable in all this, in his own way'

Mornawen: 'And she is going to see them, anyways. It was good of Hurin.'

Hollyberye: 'How he must have wished he had just died on the battlefield in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.'

Elimraen: 'I forgot about Hurin for most of the book really, but the thought that he was seeing everything that happened and was utterly helpless to change any of it is heartbreaking. But yes, he was so strong and was still able to think

clearly and make a good decision at the end, even after all that.'

Mithmenelien: 'The end was so sad'

Hollyberye: 'I think it would have been a good touch if Tolkien had concluded each major event with a thought of Hurin watching on in agony, or something'

Mornawen: 'That would be good, when they make the movie. ;)'

Hollyberye: 'The movie would be painful to watch wink'

Byrcha: 'aye, would be useful to remind everyone of Hurin (and Morgoth) now and then'

Hollyberye: 'And very R rated for all the gore, etc'

Anthemisa: 'And please not in three parts...'

Elimraen: 'Yes, a real tragedy Mith. There's nothing in it that I can see as a 'bright side''

Elimraen: 'lol Anthe!'

Mornawen: 'Three parts, yikes!'

Hollyberye: 'I have a series of additional discussion points about the book as a whole.'

Mithmenelien: 'yes unless it gets a Hollywood ending ;)'

Byrcha: 'heh, no more painful than some Shakespeare or Greek tragedies'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, it is just like those Byrcha!'

Malphos: 'But as a story, it is kind of a frame. So getting back to him at the final moment is fitting imho'

Lhinnthel: 'I'm not sure I could watch it!'

Elimraen: 'I've not read many of those :)'

Mornawen: 'Or Sophocles'

Elimraen: '(But, I was thinking that even in Romeo and Juliet, the families are reconciled by their grief at the end, right? But this just ends in complete misery sad)'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turin's character was partly inspired by Finnish mythology and the tragic anti-hero of The Kalevala, Kullervo. How would you characterize Turin's progress as an anti-hero? Was he always that way? When did he reach that point, if indeed he did?'

Mornawen: 'I forget how Oedipus ends.'

Anthemisa: 'Meanwhile I don't know you already mentioned but I found that Tolkien confirmed in his letters that storyline of Turin was inspired from Oedipus'

Malphos: 'All dead in Oedipus, if i remember right.'

Hollyberye: 'Oedipus was one of three works cited. The one I just mentioned above is one of them'

Mornawen: 'I should read the Kalevala.'

Mithmenelien: 'he blinded himself after he found out that he had married his own mother I believe'

Byrcha: 'aye'

Hollyberye: 'Wagner's opera was another influence'

Byrcha: 'hence the telling comments from Turin about blindness'

Mithmenelien: 'and Turin did say that he had been blind to, so there is a likeness in that'

Hollyberye: 'I have some thoughts on Turin as an anti-hero'

Hollyberye: 'At first it seems he struggles valiantly to not be one, but to be heroic, but is stymied by his pride and bitterness. But the Brandir murder is the final straw in his decline or rather reaching the pinnacle of an anti-hero.'

Malphos: 'For his 'progress', I think he continues to struggle against the bad fate, but whatever he does, he takes the wrong turns. It feels more like not getting out of some swamp sucking him in.'

Byrcha: 'ah yes, I can see some Wagner (Norse myth) with Mim the Dwarf'

Hollyberye: 'It came right on the heels of his most heroic act, killing Glaurung, and in the end, defines him, in my opinion.'

Hollyberye: 'Malphos, excellent analogy'

Byrcha: 'he did have a pattern of following up heroic deeds with reprehensible ones'

Mornawen: 'Turin kills a lot of people, but not many deliberately.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Brandir's death was striking out at words he did not want to hear'

Mornawen: 'Going back to Saeros, the elf in Doriath, that was an accident.'

Hollyberye: 'Plus he combined it with such nasty words.'

Mornawen: 'Beleg was an accident... *thinks*'

Mithmenelien: 'yes'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, most died because they had the tragedy of being part of his life'

Mornawen: 'The leader of the bandits, the one who attacked the crofter's girl...'

Hollyberye: 'I do in the end think he is a 'classic' anti-hero'

Anthemisa: 'Much like a anti-hero, indeed.'

Hollyberye: 'With Tolkien's opposite being Aragorn'

Hollyberye: 'Any more thoughts on the anti-hero aspect before I move on?'

Balom: 'No, miss.'

Hollyberye: 'Balom is a sweetheart like Bambik, I see'

Mornawen: 'A good analysis. :)'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Although this is characterized as the darkest and most depressing of Tolkien's works, did you still glean a favorite character from it? If so, who would that be and why?'

Elimraen: 'Beleg!'

Mithmenelien: 'Nellas, she was just so adorable, and I like the way she lived in the forest'

Anthemisa: 'Poor Nienor, Just for being herself...'

Byrcha: 'Not a favorite exactly, and I know I'm a bit 'out there' in saying Glaurung leaves quite an impression (like Cumberbatch's take on Smaug in the movies).'

Malphos: 'Well, 'favorite' depends on definition. I am impressed by Glaurung - even if he is defeated in the end, he was very cunning, with many wicked plans. And steered Turin perfectly most of the time.'

Hollyberye: 'Now how funny is that!!!! Here is what I think: Beleg is my favorite character, for his goodness and strength, independence and loyalty; and then Nellas, the wild and innocent Elf, for her sweetness and intrinsic goodness; and simply that she intrigues me. I wrote that last night.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Byrcha and Malphos.'

Malphos: 'Hehe Byrcha'

Hollyberye: 'So Elimraen and MIth , I am with you'

Hollyberye: 'There is nothing wrong with picking a favorite character from among the evil!'

Hollyberye: 'Does anyone else have a favorite character?'

Byrcha: 'Heh, and Glaurung is one of the few that does NOT die a tragic death!'

Lhinnthel: 'I also adored Nellas and wish to read more of her and her life. Also, Hurin as a character for his strength.'

Malphos: 'Imagine Hurin had not been captured, what would he have been a difference to history perhaps?'

Hollyberye: 'He certainly would have worked hard for Elven/Men relations! Like a great ambassador. And he would have been a wonderful influence on Turin'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed! Hurin seemed fair and just! A ruler one would have lived to serve and who would gain loyalty easily.'

Mornawen: 'I've always liked Morwen, although as a mother myself, I could never send off my boy, I would have kept all together.'

Hollyberye: 'Morwen intrigued me. I felt she was a prisoner to her own personality'

Mornawen: 'She was more complicated than some characters.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, very complicated--which is always interesting in a novel.'

Mithmenelien: 'I would not call him my favorite but I also liked Labadal :)'

Elimraen: 'Aw, yes :)'

Lhinnthel: 'Oh yes!'

Mornawen: 'Oh yes, Mith!'

Malphos: 'But that complexity was not elaborated, so we have to guess on her motives sadly.'

Malphos: 'please help me, I forgot: who was Labadal?'

Mithmenelien: 'and Lalaith, the description of her was so lovely!'

Mornawen: 'The servant from Turin's childhood.'

Lhinnthel: 'Was he not the lame servant of Turin's youth?'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, he was and the one we meet when Turin came back again'

Malphos: 'ah!'

Hollyberye: 'Q. In a cast of many villains, which character is your most despised and why?'

Byrcha: 'Morgoth gets the most credit here'

Elimraen: 'Morgoth, because his revenge on Hurin was just so purely wicked.'

Malphos: 'Interesting question. Besides Morgoth himself, all are either 'your normal villain in the wood', or (dark) heroes themselves. Kind of.'

Hollyberye: 'For me, because he was more real to me--Mim'

Mornawen: 'I really disliked Saeros, he was so petty.'

Hollyberye: 'his character flaws are believable to me, I don't have to suspend my disbelief in his case, and I loathe his character. He was treating Turin almost like a son, and then betrays him. Very foul.'

Mithmenelien: 'Androg, because he was so false'

Byrcha: 'Mim does stand out'

Mornawen: 'Mim, too, yes.'

Hollyberye: 'I disliked Saeros too, as I dislike jealousy more than any other human emotion'

Anthemisa: 'Mim! yes! Eww!'

Mithmenelien: 'For some reason I kinda liked Mim xD'

Hollyberye: 'You did? Can you explain that? Because of his sad situation?'

Mornawen: 'Mim wasn't so bad as others, in my opinion.'

Hollyberye: 'any other most despised nominees???'

Anthemisa: 'Being father or inspiration of Dourhands, and betraying yes not bad, like Grima...'

Mithmenelien: 'I'm not sure, probably because his situation was so heart wrenching, and his actions was ruled by what happened to him'

Hollyberye: 'BUt he chose his own path'

Mornawen: 'Turin's fellow Androg slew Mim's son, so there's that.'

Mithmenelien: 'and I liked the way him and Turin connected'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and after that tragic event, he chose a path that he did not have to choose'

Malphos: 'Mim's. In the middle of nature, but completely hidden. A refuge and a bit of a happy island - except when the story crashes in.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. The book takes us to many settlements...which settlement intrigued the most and why?'

Mithmenelien: 'I liked The hidden city of Gondolin the most!'

Elimraen: 'I liked reading about Menegroth because it was apparently the inspiration for Thranduil's halls.'

Mornawen: 'Nargothrond, yes and Menegroth.'

Mornawen: 'I wonder what underground elf-kingdoms look like.'

Hollyberye: 'I like Elven settlements, but Mim's home--that place really intrigued me, the bald hill'

Malphos: 'It seems Tolkien liked hidden places. Nargothrond, Gondolin, Mim's small dwelling. And remember also Rivendell is described as somehow hidden.'

Mithmenelien: 'And I loved the first painting in the book then Hurin and Huor flies to Gondolin on the the eagles!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I was enchanted by that image'

Anthemisa: 'The river place near Brethil, and the doom places of dragon, I felt the stench from the way of description'

Hollyberye: 'yes that was memorable, Anthy'

Mithmenelien: 'the landscapes perspective of it made it feel like they where flying into the book, it was great!'

Mornawen: 'Yes, that was vivid, Anthemisa.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Of all his names, which one do you feel is most fitting to Turin? Neithan, "The Wronged"; Agarwaen son of Úmarth, "Bloodstained son of Ill-fate"; Gorthol, "The Dread Helm"; Adanedhel, "The Elf-Man,"; Mormegil, "Black Sword";Thurin, "Secretive,"; "Wildman of the Woods"; and Turambar, "Master of Fate".'

Hollyberye: 'I favor Turambar as a literary device because it so ironically untrue...But The Wronged I find most fitting--so much that drove him was because he thought he was wronged, and in the end I felt he really was. The meaning was different than the reality.'

Mithmenelien: 'Mormegil, becouse of the importance of the sword in his life'

Elimraen: 'Agarwaen seems most fitting to me.'

Malphos: 'Oh interesting view. I thought it to be wrong, 'the wronged'. But you are right, he did feel like that.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh excellent point on Mormegil'

Anthemisa: 'Turambar it is, and as he is wild, and a man and from the woods, Wildman of the Woods...'

Malphos: 'From an analytical point of view it would be Agarwaen, but it does not feel like a 'name''

Hollyberye: 'Actually, Elimraen, that name is just about perfect as a description'

Byrcha: 'they would have run out of room on the stone for all of the names, but Turambar fits best even if ironic or wish-not-fulfilled'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Malphos--probably why I did not pick it'

Elimraen: 'No, I didn't even remember it as one of his names! But from the meanings, it sums him up for me.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. We have stated periodically that this is a book that was never finalized, and the level of editing is uneven. What portion of the book do you feel is the most polished, well-written part?'

Hollyberye: 'I thought the last chapter was superbly well-written. Some chapters were very uneven, even within the chapter.'

Anthemisa: 'Hard to decide, but I really loved all the battle scenes.'

Elimraen: 'The first few chapters I found the easiest to read. Not sure if that's answering the question though!'

Byrcha: 'I mostly think the entire thing needed at least one more solid editing pass. There were several places where things could have been expanded, though I can't think of it now'

Malphos: 'I am looking at an even more unfinished version, or excerpts, in the book I have here. From that I think the meeting with Mim, and his final moments are most worked out.'

Mornawen: 'The day/night movement of the dragon, and Turin's assault on him, was one place.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the meeting with Mim was polished and I agree with Mornawen, too.'

Hollyberye: 'Anthy, I confess when I first started Tolkien as a young teen, I would gloss over the battle scenes. I have never much enjoyed reading about battles. Nothing to do with caliber of the writing though.'

Mornawen: 'I think the dialogue was pretty sound, throughout.'

Hollyberye: 'agreed'

Mornawen: 'Formal and epic, but then, that's Tolkien.'

Hollyberye: 'Almost always intriguing'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, I don't like reading about battles eather'

Hollyberye: 'Q. I tend to re-read books--and many I re-read almost annually, inclduing The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Do you think you will ever re-read this book? Why or why not?'

Byrcha: 'probably eventually someday, once I've forgotten how terribly tragic it is :P'

Hollyberye: 'hahah'

Mornawen: 'Oh, yes, I'll reread it. I like tragedy.'

Elimraen: 'Probably parts of it, so I can write out my favourite quotes! But it's a difficult read.'

Hollyberye: 'I seriously doubt that I will re-read it, but it looks thoroughly worn now, as I really read it about three times during the course of this discussion.'

Elimraen: 'I also like it for the bigger picture history of the world.'

Hollyberye: 'And it has water damage. So it looks like a well beloved book'

Mornawen: 'Oh dear'

Elimraen: 'From all the crying'

Hollyberye: 'haha no--on very hot days my A/C in the sun room leaks in the ceiling and it fell victim to that a few years ago.'

Malphos: 'I do not like tragedy, it hurts my longing for harmony. But I will read parts of it again, definitely.'

Anthemisa: 'I wont... I've read once, I know what's going on, I prefer to re-read Silmarilion but not this one. It's really hard to read, in English, even translated version is. I know Silmarilion is even harder, but it has a nice side

to read.'

Mithmenelien: 'it might be to sad to read again, but you'll never know. it was easier to read it together with you all though.'

Mithmenelien: 'I will probably reread some parts of it though, the ones I like the most'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Which is the worse: Turin's personality flaws or the curse itself? Is this almost a 'chicken and the egg' argument?'

Hollyberye: 'My thoughts: He hardly needs a curse with his fierce pride, inability to control his actions, always at odds between what he thinks he should do, despite sound advice to the contrary, and self-pity. To me, those

characteristic combined make Turin himself worse than any curse.'

Hollyberye: 'This question has perplexed scholars, I read, too'

Elimraen: 'I think the curse! I like to think that his efforts to do the right thing wouldn't have all gone horribly wrong if it wasn't for the curse!'

Byrcha: 'hard to know, so chicken/egg for me. Hard to see if it is the curse or Turin's own choices'

Mornawen: 'I kind of agree with Elimraen, the curse.'

Hollyberye: 'Very perplexing'

Mithmenelien: 'they go hand in had, the curse might be wore, but Turin was the perfect person for that curse, it might not have worked so well with someone else'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.'

Malphos: 'We were undecided when we weighted Turin's personality against the curse before. I think it is Turin himself that is so torn. The 'magic' is like most of the magic in Tolkien's works more indirect, and only hinted at in my

opinion.'

Balom: 'Both! but most likely to Chicken/egg'

Mornawen: 'Yes, it's not a magic curse, like witchcraft.'

Hollyberye: '((It could be though that Balom is hungry...))'

Corulin: 'I think that with his personality it would be a waste of a good curse to use it on him ;)'

Byrcha: '((mmm, chickens and eggs ...))'

Anthemisa: '((he's always! :p))'

Malphos: 'Haha Corulin! Like that!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Tolkien's magic is very subtle although that displayed by Glaurung was profound'

Hollyberye: 'Oh Corulin :D'

Anthemisa: 'lol, he himself was a curse?'

Hollyberye: 'DOOM is the predominant word I think of when I think of Turin'

Byrcha: 'very good point, actually'

Hollyberye: 'And what a waste of a manly man :)'

Mithmenelien: 'I like the subtlety of it, it would not have been so powerful otherwise'

Mornawen: 'I think FRUSTRATION'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Mornawen, that too'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does anyone have anything else they would like to add about The Children of Hurin?'

Elimraen: 'I like thinking about this story in relation to the one 'we' are in in Lotro, and how we're still fighting the same enemy that these heroes were fighting (Morgoth via Sauron) :)'

Hollyberye: 'I agree with that Elimraen'

Byrcha: 'don't read it in the winter time, lest you become even more depressed'

Hollyberye: 'It gave me a greater appreciation of how we got where we are, how the epic struggle continues'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Byrcha!'

Elimraen: 'Yes :D It's inspiring!'

Mithmenelien: 'about the last question, it's like Morgoth fitted the curse to work perfectly with Turins personality'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Mith, with pride helping.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mith, excellent point'

Mithmenelien: 'Oh, and I love all those beautiful paintings in the book!'

Mithmenelien: 'Just a little thing I'd like to mention about the book, is that I really like how the almost colorless color pallet, suited the mood of the story'

Mithmenelien: 'and I really like illustrated books, they make me think of old books that here hand written and painted'

Lhinnthel: 'awww'

Hollyberye: 'I love the illustrations'

Mithmenelien: 'and Illustrations are very fitting then it comes to Tolkiens works to since they take place in a kind of distant past'

Byrcha: 'it is an interesting interplay of Elves and Men, while most of the Simarillion is about the Elves, and LOTR is about both again'

Hollyberye: 'yes true!'

Anthemisa: 'Agreed Elimraen, and not much to add.'

Malphos: 'Oh that is a good point Byrcha!'

__________________________________________

Hollyberye: 'Thank you for being such a splendid book club. I have learned from each and everyone of you.'

Byrcha: 'oh and thank you Holly, for guiding us!'

Hollyberye: 'I am now taking suggestions for next book. In our forum thread, Corulin has nominated The Hobbit.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Byrcha, and yes, thank you, Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'I had been thinking of something less well known--Tales of the Perilous Realm (although it doesn't look that appealing); Of Beren and Luthien from The Silmarillion; but am open to all suggestions. Your thoughts can be posted in the forum, and/or here (now).'

Anthemisa: 'Thanks for leading us Hollyberye!'

Hollyberye: 'It was my pleasure completely! I loved the whole experience.'

Elimraen: 'I'd be interested in anything really, but my suggestion is some sections of Unfinished Tales, like the History of Galadriel and Celeborn.'

Hollyberye: 'I am so impressed with the caliber of the LMB!!!!'

Lhinnthel: 'Thank you so much for leading Holly! The discussions (even if I am mostly quiet) really do help me gain a deeper understanding of the material!'

Malphos: 'Thank you very much Holly! As I mentioned in the beginning, I never did something like that before. It was very interesting, and so many different views on the parts of the story!'

Hollyberye: 'well, I may even post a poll in the forum but with me having final say muhahahaha'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, thank you so much Holly you made this into a wonderful experience!'

Elimraen: 'It's been brilliant. Such a great way to get to know the story deeply. Thanks for leading Holly, and everyone for the discussion :)'

Mornawen: 'It was good to have you, Malphos.'

Corulin: 'Yes, thank you, Holly! You are awesome! :D'

Hollyberye: 'I learned so much. Thank you :D'

Byrcha: 'I think it really helped having a group reading a tragedy like this one'

Lhinnthel: 'I'm open to read any, it gives me an excuse to add to my little Tolkien library XD'

Hollyberye: 'I did kind of want to keep us on the track of lesser read works'

Anthemisa: 'Thank you very much! I'm into any book! I love this club!'

Hollyberye: 'Maybe we could do more of the lesser read then something more well-read?'

Byrcha: 'has everyone here read the tale of Beren & Luthien?'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that it would be fun to read something that connects with the book we just read'

Mornawen: 'Yes.'

Anthemisa: 'I've read'

Hollyberye: 'No not really'

Elimraen: 'No'

Mithmenelien: 'no, not in full'

Lhinnthel: 'I have not'

Mithmenelien: 'I would love to read it!'

Malphos: 'That is a good idea with the lesser read. But I think Beren & Luthien might not really fit that? :)'

Hollyberye: 'what if I pulled the relevant parts of that tale from the Silmarillon'

Corulin: 'A billion years ago. I remember only that it was about someone named Beren and someone else named Luthien :3'

Hollyberye: 'Well I know the tale but don't remember reading it'

Anthemisa: 'would be Superb'

Byrcha: 'oh no! we must read it then!'

Malphos: 'And some nice doggy ^^'

Hollyberye: 'I actually have read the silmarillon but I think I must have been drunk or something at the time lolol'

Hollyberye: 'No not really, but I barely recall it, I was so young'

Byrcha: 'aye, but not the entire Silmarillion, lest we all catch up on our sleep with those early chapters :P'

Lhinnthel: 'I've only read little bits here and there'

Mithmenelien: 'maybe we could read about the prophesy that Huor told about the star, or read more about the hidden city of Gondolin that we just glimpsed briefly in the beginning of the book, or something about the one who made Turins

sword, Eöl the Dark elf?'

Malphos: 'Is there much material on that elf? I don't remember.'

Elimraen: 'Yes I'd like to read about the prophecy at some point!'

Hollyberye: 'How about I think through all these suggestions and look at the source material--then post something in the forum?'

Byrcha: 'Eol and Gondolin are covered a bit more in the Silmarillion as a whole. Don't recall how much though'

Malphos: 'Please do, Holly!'

Byrcha: 'aye'

Hollyberye: 'Corulin will you be upset if we do not do The Hobbit next?'

Corulin: 'I wonder if there's an audiobook of Silmarillion?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, there is. Audible has it. I have my hardback, too'

Anthemisa: 'We'll be still talking about elves!'

Hollyberye: 'I do not want to slog straight through the Silmarillion though'

Malphos: 'But please not Ungolianth - it makes me really upset to think what this monster destroyed -.-'

Corulin: 'What's Audible?'

Hollyberye: 'It is a wonderful audio book online company--I know they have a UK version'

Byrcha: 'The scene with Ungoliant and Morgoth really stands out though, well written/conceived'

Lhinnthel: 'I've only read the first few chapters of the Silmarillion, but I must laugh when everyone talks of how sleepy they are - I love them!'

Hollyberye: 'It is now under Amazon control but not changed'

Hollyberye: 'I will cull a list from these ideas and look at the source material'

Corulin: 'I can only buy from Swedish stores'

Hollyberye: 'But first I will prep the chat from today, that gets priority'

Byrcha: 'oh I enjoy the Silmarillion now, knowing where it is going when I reread it. But that first time long ago ... zzzzzzz.'

Corulin: 'I'll check around and see if it's sold here :)'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Byrcha, I think my mind wandered'

Hollyberye: 'Also Corulin...So much of this is also available free on line. Just last month I found Children of Hurin online free'

Byrcha: 'it takes time initially getting used to the fact that it is more of a history than a novel'

Corulin: 'Hurin got taken down from Youtube very fast last time'

Lhinnthel: 'I must be weird :)'

Hollyberye: 'No Lhinn you are just into pink elephants wink'

Lhinnthel: 'Youtube also has quite a bit of Tolkien's works as audio'

Hollyberye: 'Okay I will get back to you :)'

Then Anthemisa asked about the songs related to the book, for which Holly had written lyrics. We performed The Song of the Bow, Beleg's Lament, but were missing an instrument. It will be performed properly this Sunday (23 August 15, 3PM server time) at Andune Ensemble!

A final word: I am sorry I took so long to get this chat posted, and I took shortcuts that I didn't take before--not adding punctuation, capitals and so on, just resorting chat to be in the proper place and correcting obvious typos. I will SOON post a decision or final short list on what we discuss next, but in the meantime, feel free to post any more thoughts and also screenshots.

Fantastic LMB book club--thank you!!
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Hooray for Holly! Thanks for posting the notes :) The Beleg song was beautiful yesterday.

Anthe mentioned to me that it is this Beleg who was supposed to have a beard, at some point. I didn't think it could be him because I've searched for artwork of him that I could maybe buy, and nothing I'd seen had him bearded. (I'd still like to get a print of one of Alan Lee's illustrations)

I didn't save the link Anthe sent so I researched and found this painting by Tolkien which is of Beleg finding Gwindor. There's the hint of a maybe-beard here.

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I think that is where the question arose from :)


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Might be an outline because the rest of him has the same thick lines outside, impossible to tell since he is so tiny so it would have been hard to make thinner lines :)
Though Tolkien might have used that outline as a beard anyway! A pity we can't ask! XD I also would like to ask what hair colour Legolas has... lol


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Yes indeed! There's a pretty thick line around the hand as well. Maybe his hand just slipped for the beard lol Yes, wouldn't it be lovely to sit down with Tolkien and a pot of tea and ask him all our questions? :)


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This was so much fun... are there any plans for another book reading in the new year?


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Molly Bayberry wrote:
This was so much fun... are there any plans for another book reading in the new year?


Yes! I will post more soon--but we will be reading and discussing "everything" Tolkien wrote about Luthien and Beren...I will compile all the various texts and post them in the near future. This will start after Winterstock.

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