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CavalryBattle
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

Well heck...
Tolkien versus Martin.
Some are claiming Martin is the 'American Tolkien'... and I'm a bit insulted.
...I'm American, and still shaking my head...

George R.R. Martin, for those who don't know, has written a series called...
-Game of Thrones-

"Games" is fun as heck, always creating characters we can latch upon, and watch them fail. We love hate them... but for me, it's not the depth... etc.
(don't get me started... oh yeah, I'm starting it!)

I am making this thread to let you swing your swords.
Andeon
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

I think comparing authors, especially cross-cultural comparisons, is a exercise in futility. Almost every author I've read brings something unique, or NOTHING unique, and trying to say that one is a version of the other but with one particular flavor difference always seems to me to be more an attempt to sound like a witty pundit than to actually give a critique of writing

still, if you really *did* want to nail down this argument, I suppose the best thing to do would be to lay out the features of J.R.R. Tolkien writing - then lay out the features of G.R.R.M writing...then try and see if any of those features corresponded directly to being British/American (key note - in the letters of Tolkien to his editor in my copy of the Silmarillion, Tolkien does specifically point out that he wanted to create a new "British" fairy-tale, as he felt Britian lacked it's own culturally distinctive fairy-tale type storytelling - can't say one way or t'other bout Martin though)

I'd say a few of the key features of Tolkien writing is the extraordinarily detailed and "organic" progression of his history - that is to say, that his "current" stories (i.e. LOTR and the Hobbit) were based on a very well detailed and more-or-less originally crafted history, so that all of the events that were culminating in the LOTR seemed to connect very naturally and easily with all the events in history that had led up to them

p.s. I *hate* using the word "organic" when regarding literary critique - everyone seems to use it, and you get the feeling that after a certain point it's just become a literary critique buzz-word, but sometimes, I can't think of a better term /shrug

also, I've personally always gotten the feeling that there's a strong sense of subtle spirituality in Tolkien's writing - not quite as much in the Hobbit, but most especially in the LOTR - the one ring being a constant source of temptation, hopelessness, dread and so forth (one of my all time favorite storytelling devices), powerful words that can rouse the spirit, noble lineages that can contain inherent power of the spirit, so on and so forth

I've never read the Game of Throne series, so I can't say what Martin's writing is/isn't like...but if you want some of the authors that *do*, in certain ways, remind me of Tolkien, lots of people will mention, of course, C.S. Lewis, whose spiritual content was considerably more overt, and for myself, Robert E Howard of Conan fame, and curiously, H.P. Lovecraft of...well..lovecraftian fame? Cthuluesque fame? Cthulian fame? he's a hard one to classify :)

Robert E. Howard also has a surprisingly culturally diverse world, although to be sure the content of barbaric brutality and...well...let's just call it sensualism, sets it apart from Tolkien's considerably more somber writing, there are parts that *feel* like they came from the same tradition of writing. Howard of course has a far less detailed world history, but the cultural interactions of his current world seem to have a lot of the same...complexity and...grrrr..."organicism"...still hate that word

I personally love David Eddings for current fantasy, although Robert Jordan actually picked up a lot of Conan novels, and he writes some excellent Conan...

well, I'm drifting from the point - anyway, do a detailed examination of the features of Tolkien writing, compare them to the key features of Martin writing, and then decide for yourself if they share enough key features to really be compared at all - then see if you can think of any modern American authors that share key features with Tolkien (honestly, it just sprang to mind, Frank Herbert's Dune cycle reminds me a great deal of the incredibly dense history of Tolkien - maybe consider him as a Tolkien-esque writer - dunno if he's american or not, though - never really crossed my mind to ask)


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Harperella
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

To me, Tolkien is writing a fictional mythology and G.R.R. Martin is writing a fictional history. Tolkien's work feels like an Anglo-Saxon epic world that never was. G.R.R.M. feels like an Tudor England that never was.

--Harper


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CavalryBattle
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

Can we even compare them?

I think we can. Based upon the authors themselves.
Tolkien was creating a history. (his own words)
Martin is creating an opera for video. (his own words)

These specifics are vital.
Tolkien's idea was laid, Martin's idea is formless.
Tolkien's world was formed, Martin's is ephemeral.

Simply. Tolkien knew where he was going. Martin, doesn't.

I'm a fan of history "real or feigned". (Tolkien)

Love this stuff. And, it's why we are here.
Kiralynn
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

Considering the extremely adult nature of quite a bit of the content of the "Game of Thrones" series, is it an appropriate topic for these family-friendly forums?


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Andeon
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

to be fair, so far particular events or incidents from GOT haven't come up, so I'm not all that worried about the adult content therein - I suppose if someone were to start using specific events/characters from the books as part of their argument, it could become a problem, but I don't think it *has* to be

so, for anyone continuing to contribute to this thread, please refrain from using any specific adult content examples from your postings...I'd like to think that simple guideline should be sufficient to keep the topic from wandering in the wrong direction

For Cavalry - sounds like you wandered into this discussion with your mind mostly made up already - no worries - I imagine you've given it quite a bit of thought already - still, I think, if you really wanted to argue the points, you'd have to go further than your most recent post - you describe Martin's work as ephemeral and formless, and I'll admit that not having read the books, I can't speak with any great authority on the content, but given the HBO series which I have seen some of, it sounds like he has a well formed world - it may be subject to...filling in...as he approaches areas that haven't been previously established, much like revealing the fog of war in an RTS and such, but once he establishes a country, a lineage, a history, it seems to me like he sticks with it fairly well - although again, I'll grant that the HBO series could quite possibly be rewriting the novels with the TV audience in mind, so it's not by any means an irrefutable argument

in short, all I'm saying is, it's dangerous to ascribe sweeping generalizations in any argument, which would include describing the Game of Thrones world, with all it's kingdoms, histories, characters and political machinations, as formless and ephemeral - it may be subject to additions, but once a given history or element is established, it seems to stay established, at least given what I know


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CavalryBattle
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

Andeon, I'm on the fifth book of Martin's series.

My main interest is Tolkien, and how he is copied.

I'm new to this forum, but old to to Tolkien. Martin's 'adult content' is merely an adjunct of what makes him a 'soap opera' and, in my feeling, is an example of the degradation of the 'high fantasy' that Tolkien inspired.
I was hoping not to go 'there'. *chuckles*
(as an adult, I am happily to 'go there')

Be that it may, Tolkien reigns supreme. Martin is fun, adult, but not...
"the American Tolkien"

And if you disagree, please let us keep talking. I find this intriguing, not only because of the hype, but surely this part of the forums should be the largest section.
Tolkien is well, all of us.
(Edit: and I think Martin would agree, Tolkien... made him. I write here merely to applaude one of my literary heroes. All these silly games and books, from WoW to Rift. Anything that has an elf or a halfling. A dwarf or mage. Writers seek variables, but the base remains the same. And this section of the forums regales our founder...)
Tolkien.
Andeon
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

oh, I don't really have a position on Martin as being an "American Tolkien" or not - I'm just saying, if you're going to argue he's not with people, I'd recommend starting from a more objective series of criteria to compare with

I enjoy tolkien's works, to be sure, and there are certainly elements he contributed to fantasy storytelling that have now become foundational concepts, but he didn't invent elves and dwarves, although many modern stock ideas of said have come from Tolkien's interpretations of them

and honestly, there's nothing inherently wrong or degrading about certain elements of "adult content", although I'll grant that it's a very, very fine line between including adult situations and issues, and exploiting them for the easy sell

Like Harperella mentioned above, from what I've seen and heard, Game of Thrones feels very much like medieval and renaissance Europe transferred into a fantasy setting - using many of the more dramatic elements of our very real history, and then inflating them with the elements of fantasy - all the political manuevering, the noble bloodlines and the...transgressions...of families, and how their subtle (and not so subtle) maneuverings changed the face of their world - all highly dramatized to fit with the highly dramatic setting

and there's nothing wrong with that - it's a perfectly useful and clearly entertaining method of writing, and given what I've seen, Martin puts a lot of detail and a lot of activity and life into his characters, his setting, his histories and so forth - good on him!

trying to compare his writing "style" or "dramatic content" to Tolkien is a bad idea, not because his quality is inferior or superior, but simply because they're different. Now, if you want to argue that Tolkien's writing is qualitatively better, or is socially better, or something along those lines, you need to start establishing what you think is *better* for writing, or *better* for society, and then start examining both contents for those elements...or lack thereof - and then accept that someone who loves Martin's writing and finds it uplifting or inspiring or intriguing or whatnot, may have a different idea of what qualifies as *better*

also, while I'm sure there are people that *do* copy Tolkien, or any other great litarist (sp??), I'm not sure Martin is *copying* Tolkien, if that's what you're arguing. As I stated above, I think Tolkien's stories and Martin's stories seem very, very different - content, theme, point, tools, etc...that would sort of preclude "copying" - the fact that they both fit into a fantasy context is...well...fantasy is a really broad category of writing. Again, drawing from my love of Conan, Conan fits within the fantasy context, but Howard's (and other conan writers) writing doesn't at all try to do the same things that Tolkien's writing does - Howard was by no means "copying" Tolkien, or Lovecraft, even though he did draw some individual elements from lovecraft to help color segments of his world...

anyway, I've been blathering for too long...distracted myself with stuff...lost my train of thought


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Harperella
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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

I've read both series and quite enjoyed them both. George R.R. has done his homework with world-building if you ask me. His Westeros is every bit as detailed as Middle Earth--in a very different direction from Tolkien. But when you come to tone, the two differ enormously. Tolkien's work is heroic, legendary, mythical and ultimately optimistic. G.R.R. Martin's works are gritty, vulgar, and human at the same time as being fantastical, grandiose and epic. But I always get the feeling the George R. R. is making it up as he goes along, and Tolkien has a grand plan laid out from decades ago. I once heard George R. R. Martin remark about killing characters--I've got plenty of others where they came from. Tolkien didn't--every character is carefully crafted and dies for a reason.

And when Game of Thrones came out as a series, I couldn't stand to watch it--it was that awkward for me with all the nudity and debauchery. It is much easier to read about this stuff than watch it on TV. When LOTRO came out as a film, I couldn't take my eyes away from it, every minute of every frame.

--Harper


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re: J.R.R.T. vs G.R.R.M

Andeon wrote:
someone who loves Martin's writing and finds it uplifting or inspiring or intriguing or whatnot, may have a different idea of what qualifies as *better


Having read all the books being compared, except Martin's latest (which I won't buy till it comes out in paperback), I would guess that people don't find the Song of Ice and Fire uplifting or inspiring, at all. Most of the characters are unlikeable, most of the likeable characters do unlikeable deeds, it's just [edited for family-friendliness] and at the end of reading it I feel a little nauseated.

It is, however, pretty intriguing!

I think Martin is to Tolkien as Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code, Angels and Demons) is to Umberto Eco (The Name of the Rose, Foucault's Pendulum). They're all good, but in very different ways.

Oh, and I don't have TV or HBO to watch the series, but I don't think I could stand it. Harperella's right, it's harder to watch something like that, than to read about it.
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I go ever back to Calvary's remark and Harp's observations that Tolkien made Martin. Tolkien's interpretations of fantasy created a base that has changed (using Tolkien's metaphor) "the cauldron of story." Fantasy authors are all indebted to Tolkien as they craft their worlds. It's like his is the starting point. Oh, yes, divergences happen (they must if we want to appreciate creativity) but the reason Tolkien's work has lasted has to do with qualities that many of those other works lack. It may reside in the solidity of the world Tolkien built. He was so mindful of the foundations being firmly rooted in a history and folklore and even a language (brilliantly invented) that it has a depth of its own. That's why bits of Tolkien's mythos appears in other people's works. I won't go so far as to say that we're all derivative now, but that we are all indebted. My own creative works are certainly indebted to Tolkien, and I'm proud of that.

Can you tell I'm a big fan of JRRT...? Sorry for the diatribe.
Gaiagil


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