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Lennidhren
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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Here is the place to discuss and prepare for the in game discussion of the "Valaquenta"! I will be posting topics here sometime soon but if you are reading ahead and feeling inspired, go ahead and post your thoughts too!


Last edited by RannaDylin on 2011/07/03 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total


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re: Andeon Project #1

The great ovens bathed the hall in a gentle warmth, and the red-gold of the eternal fall outside. Voices echoed quietly in the chamber; soft elvish voices reciting scraps of song, or memories of days of long ago, lovingly remembered. A single figure seated at the long table would sometimes cause a pause in their conversation, as they looked curiously, before passing on. Men were an uncommon sight at the Last Homely House, but in these days of war and strife, all races, even the grimly remembered dwarf-kind, found refuge here in Rivendell, and so the man was a curiousity, but not one that demanded answers.

He had been sitting here in the Hall of Fire for a considerable time. He had spoken to no one. His hauberk of glittering mail was dirty and scratched, a well-worn helmet of long-abandoned elvish design sat on the table next to him, and he just...stared, about the room. Curiously, this was more reassuring to the elves that passed to and fro in the halls, rather than strange - the Hall of Fire was a common place to meditate on many things - but had they known the man, for him to sit this still, this long, would have demanded answers for his most uncommon behavior.

At last, it was as if he reached a momentous decision in his mind, and he almost bolted out of his chair, and spoke to two random elves that had at that moment just happened to pass by.

Please, good elves, you have my apologies, but..." He paused for a moment, as if searching for the right words. "I wish to know about the past. Here, in this place of lore and learning...is there someone that might speak to me of the history of Middle Earth?"

He seemed so earnest, so urgent in his question, that the elves felt compelled to answer him as best they could.

"You have come to the right place" they said, "For here in Rivendell dwells master Elrond, who has seen much, and treasured the knowledge of ancient days. You could have no better teacher."

His face fell, for a moment, as he replied "Oh, no. I have no need to bother Master Elrond. I have no doubt he is engaged in great counsel during these troubled times. Perhaps I might just see a library, or such - I'm more than capable of reading my way through...the whole...history...of...Middle Earth...erm..." His words trailed as he began to realize the enormity of what he proposed. But he was saved, by a most uncommon voice, that carried through the chamber strong and clear...

"Knowledge, and Wisdom, are not treasures, to be hoarded by the great and powerful. They are a gift, entrusted to the wise, to be passed on to all those that would seek of it. I would be proud, Man of Dale, to tell you of the beginnings and endings of Middle Earth, and of the great heroes and great sorrows of all the time that we have known."

and so it was, that Andeon, Captain of Dale, heard the tale of the Quenta Silmarillion, by way of Elrond Halfelven, Lord of Rivendell, in the last days of the Third Age of Middle Earth.


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re: Grandfather's Burning Wargs...

"Story time, children! Gather round!" the grizzled old voice called out, and the patter of a dozen feet scurried into the common room, ranging back and forth about the old man like eager puppies. The old man was bent slightly, and walked slowly, with care, but with a strength and determination that belied old age. Like a very old tree, perhaps, he reminded people of both age, and of strength, and he had always been a symbol to these children of the enduring strength of Dale. He settled himself on a well worn stool, that sat before the fireplace, and looked down at the bright eyed, eager faces of his grandchildren, and their small but stalwart circle of friends. The sound of dishes and soft voices from the kitchen drifted away, as the old man swept his gaze across the children, now quiet and expectant, and asked the question he knew they were waiting for...

"So, what tale shall I tell tonight?" Asked the old man. The boy that sat in front, looked to his left, and his right, meeting the eyes of his stalwart companions, and turned with an uncanny authority, and said...

"We want you to tell us about the Battle of Five Armies" he beamed, for he knew, and all had agreed well beforehand, that this is what they would ask, and knew as well, that Grandfather would not be surprised, for it was the tale they always asked to hear.

The old man's face became thoughtful - the children wondered, for this was not the way it always happened. And then, Grandfather leaned forward, and in an almost whisper, spoke to the children thus

"I know what you wish to hear - of the Armies of Laketown, the Wood-Elf king and his host, of Dwarves streaming from the mountains, and the Eagles, the Eagles to save the day!...but tonight, instead, I think I'll tell you a different tale...a tale I've never told you before. Your Grandmother hated this story...old gramps and his scrape with death...but, now that she's gone, I think perhaps its time I told you where *I* was when the Battle of Five armies waged around us".

The room was silent as a held breath...the children awestruck as only children can be when given a gift greater than their wildest expectations. A secret story, a story whose hero sat here in this very room with them, and told the epic tale from his very own lips! A dragon's treasure hoard could not have held more excitement for them, as the old man settled onto his stool, took a deep draught of his ale, and began to unspin a yarn he'd kept hidden away for almost 60 years...

I was just a boy...a boy about your age, Andeon, that night when the Dragon came to Laketown. It was a terrible thing...like being at the heart of a living storm. You saw nothing, nothing but black, until the fire came, like lightning, from the sky, to blast the huts and cottages built, blast them like tinder. But the noise...the noise was everywhere - the Dragon roared like thunder, the wings beat like a like a hurricane - he was furious, that Smaug, furious like only the rich that have been robbed of a measly trinket can be...and all his rage and fury loosed upon our little village." He took a deep draught of his ale, to give his shaking hands a moment to calm.

"I had some friends then, much like yours now. We were lucky - we, their families and mine, lived mostly on the north side of laketown, close to to the far shore...when the town began to burn, your great grandmother, along with many of the other mothers, gathered up all us children. We made it to the boats quickly, and reached the shore even as Laketown was burning. We lost Braland, a friend of mine, then...not sure how, but most of us made it safely to the shore. Your great grandfather stayed behind to find my sister. She was a
cook's apprentice, and stayed in the common hall. Father made it back by morning, but Calaya was long lost to us - a shame too, she had a way around the kitchen."

"The women wept, and the men stared in awe, but even from the shore, I saw it. The end of Smaug. Like one of the stars ripped from the sky and pulled screaming to earth, the dragon fell! And I'll tell you, although everyone afterward said I imagined it, but I tell you, I could see him...Bard. His shadow against the burning wreckage of Laketown, drawing his bow...one shot! One shot, and the Dragon was brought low!"

"The morning after, it was hard to keep your head. Everything smelled like ash, the women were weeping, and the men...the men were silent as graves, or raging like angry trolls. They cursed dragons, and dwarves, treasure and mountains, lakes and sunrise and sunset. We built some little huts and tents there on the shore, a camp for the refugees of Laketown. But the men would not let up - they must punish someone, and as they were still angry and the dragon was already dead, they had to find someone else to blame, and who was left, who, but the dwarves up in the dragon's mountain."

"The elves had come as well - scouts had seen and heard the dragon's devastation, and when the the elves arrived, the men took their case to the elves, and the elves, always having a mind to blame dwarves for catastrophe, took up the cause in a heartbeat."

"Well, you know the story well - the men of laketown and the elves of mirkwood treated with the dwarves of thorin's company. they hewed and they hawed, they argued and threatened, and demanded of the dwarves what dwarves would never give...and so they meant to make war. They gathered up the fighting men of Laketown, and the armies of King Thranduil, and would have stormed the gates of Erebor if not for the armies of Thorin's cousin. And we were looking at war, real war."

"Meantime, back in the camp, were the women, and the old men, and us children. Word reached us, that the goblins were coming, that a wizard had come to spread the alarm. But no one was thinking quite right that day, and so the armies gathered to face the goblins hoards. But I knew, as almost everyone in the camp knew, that the front of the battle would spread. The goblins would come with their Wargs and their torches, and they'd find the camp, the women and children, and slaughter us all while the battle in the field raged on."

"Well, I was just a boy...I wasn't a soldier, and I couldn't fight in a war. But I had friends, and I had an idea...you see, children...Goblins and Wargs, are miserable, frightened things at heart. And none too bright, neither. And it came into my mind that if we were going to get slaughtered, and all forgotten by the great armies of Men, Elves and Dwarves...then the least I could do was FIGHT!"

"Well, you know my mother would never have it, nor none of the other mothers, neither. They were doing what smart folk should do - gather up what food and provisions they could, and move to someplace that might be safe. But 'might be' safe wasn't safe in my mind, and so fighting was still our best bet, at least in my mind - so I got my friends, and they got theirs, any that could carry a stick or a pitchfork, any with half a mind to fight, and while the women gathered up the bedrolls and baskets of bread, my friends and I, and all the children what had the spirit to fight, we found ourselves pots for helmets, trays for breastplates, fish-knives and hatchets and anything with an edge, a point or hard, blunt end."

"The battle began, and you could hear it. It's strange, how...quiet, a battle sounds, from just a bit of distance away. You don't hear screams, or the din of clanging metal, or of pounding feet...it all just sorta melts into one big, quiet rumble. It felt like dusk, for bats and storm had blocked out the sun, and I and the children stole away from the camp, to the hills just a bit north of of the camp, on the shore of Long lake. We found all sorts of quiet spots to hide...divots and dips in the hills...and sure as dragons love gold, we heard the barking and howling of wargs on their way."

It was a terrifying story so far, and full of desperation, wildly reckless decisions, the folly of men, and the encroaching end. The children were riveted, as Grandfather took another deep draught of his ale. His voice rose in timbre and pace, as if calling soldiers to rally in battle...

"That was the worst, you know. The waiting...so dark you couldn't quite see the wargs and their goblin riders, but you could hear them, coming closer, barking, howling, the goblins jeering. It was the torches, really, the torches they lit to burn the huts and tents of the camp, that was our signal - and as the riders came breaking through, we threw ourselves from our ditches and gullies, and hurled whatever we had. A club to the knees here, a pitchfork hurled like a javelin, or planted like a spear. Even children throwing rocks with the kind of cruel accuracy that only children can manage. The riders stumbled...the unexpected attack struck fear in them, and although we knew it was hopeless, there was just a moment were we realized that even as children, armed with little more than rocks and sticks, we could cause fear in such ugly and hateful things."

Then Grandfather smiled, a broad smile that lit up his face unlike anything the children had seen in their lifetimes.

"And then something happened that I could never have expected. You see, we had garbed ourselves in whatever rattletrap scraps we could find...we were small, we yelled and screamed and jabbered incoherently as we threw ourselves without plan or order at our enemy. In fact, we were so alike to goblins in dress and behavior, that there, in the dark, in the midst of battle and blood-rage, they could not tell the difference between us and them. The wargs went mad, believing they had been betrayed, as it is ever in the nature of evil things to expect evil deeds from even their closest allies. The wargs began to throw off their riders, biting and bucking, howling and rolling. The Goblins wasted not a moment thinking - their own mounts now rebelling and trying to kill them, they immediately took to knifing and biting and kicking and screaming."

Grandfather chuckled "it was the damndest thing you'd ever seen. But the best part..." Grandfather began to laugh so hard he had trouble stringing his sentences together. "...the best part, was the torches!...the torches, you see children!"

The children didn't see, but they knew Grandfather would explain it...

"The Goblins had carried all manner of burning brands and torches - they meant to burn even our tents and huts...but now, the goblins flailed about them with their torches, and set their own warg mounts on Fire!" Grandfather burst out loud laughing..."Burning wargs with burning goblin riders, each set on fire with his own torch, bucking and chasing in circles all about the field...They bounced around the field like sparklers, they rolled in balls like magic fire, my favorite..."he paused to catch his breath "...my favorite was one poor Warg, his rider had set his flanks on fire, and then half fallen out of his saddle, his leg caught in the stirrup - so off there goes, a flaming warg with a flolloping goblin stuck to it's back, screaming like a spoiled child, streaming off into the night like the silliest wizards rocket you've ever seen!"

Grandfather's laughter was infectious, and the children were cheering at the antics of goofy goblins and wretched wargs. But Grandfather let his laughter settle, and the children caught his mood, and turned their attention back to him, for his final words on the matter...

"Some would say we were lucky that night...that we all could have died...and in truth, I would have expected it, before I saw what I saw that night. I did not know then that the wretched and petty evil of Goblins and Wargs would be their own undoing. But having seen it, I tell you now...before the endless hordes of evil things, before the goblins and wargs and spiders and whatever awful dreadful things creep throughout this world...do not fear. You are Free People of Middle Earth. You have something none of these wretched, miserable creatures have. You have Hope. Hope of better things...Hope that the sun can break free of the clouds, that morning can follow night. Hold to Hope, and keep your wits about you, and no matter how great your enemy, no matter how powerful, no matter how many, no matter your arms or armor...hold to Hope, and keep your wits, and there is no evil in this middle earth that cannot be overcome."

He stood up suddenly from his stool, and waved the children away. "Now, help your mother clean up, and the rest of you too!" The children bolted to their feet, and talk immediately began, of ways to fight wargs, and of crazy ways to fool goblins, and all manner of heroic silliness. But the boy Andeon stood, and simply stared at his Grandfather for a long moment, who stared back at the boy knowingly. There was no fear in this boys eyes anymore; and the word Hope was burned into his memory now, alongside images of burning wargs, screaming goblins, and all manner of dark amorphous things.


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re: re : Grandfather's Burning Warg

not really relevant to the Silmarillion, but having told the story again at Ales and Tales, I suddenly felt compelled to put it down in writing. It could still stand for some trimming - there are some redundancies, and I wonder if perhaps I shouldn't start much later in the tale, and keep grandfather's account of the burning of Laketown as it's own separate story...but this is only a first draft - enjoy it for what it is, and comments and criticisms are always appreciated, as long as they're meant to be constructive.


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Oh good! Thanks for posting the story; I enjoyed it in bits and pieces at A&T but it's always hard to follow stories there while I'm doing Old Winyards. 'Tis a good tale, too!


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Thank you for the story; i was unfortunately unable to attend.
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re: Re: re : Grandfather's Burning Warg

Andeon wrote:
not really relevant to the Silmarillion, but having told the story again at Ales and Tales, I suddenly felt compelled to put it down in writing. It could still stand for some trimming - there are some redundancies, and I wonder if perhaps I shouldn't start much later in the tale, and keep grandfather's account of the burning of Laketown as it's own separate story...but this is only a first draft - enjoy it for what it is, and comments and criticisms are always appreciated, as long as they're meant to be constructive.


What a gem of a story! Thank you Andeon! You should really put this up on a blog entry in mymiddle-earth.com.

--Harp


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

oh, speaking of which - I have in fact created a my-middle-earth account - nickname Andeon (of course) - I haven't really done anything else with it (its been a very busy week) - but I'll get there eventually


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re: Book Club on Hold

So...what with all the preparations for Weatherstock, and then a very long day of it yesterday, it seems I haven't managed to even finish rereading this week's chapter, let alone prepare anything for book club. Besides which, we're taking Dad out for Father's Day and I don't know if I'll be online by 4pm anyway.

So Book Club is postponed. More time to work on your Silmarillion Projects! :-) Probably we won't meet June 26 either, because I will be on the road for a teachers conference and not sure what I'll be doing at 4pm or if I will even have internet access. Let's just plan on July 3 for the next book club meeting.


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Har HAR Har!!! Perfect!!! Turns out I too am heading down (somewhat unexpectedly) for father's day this sunday - I debated sticking around for Valaquenta regardless, as I wasn't going to be able to make it next week, as I'm heading up to SLO to visit old college friends and gorge myself on the finest tri-tip steak sandwiches this world has ever seen, while attending my personal alma-mater gaming convention, Polycon!

So, it seems, in this rarest of cases, that Lennidhren's schedule and my own match EXACTLY! I'm feelin' good about this! So, I'll see you all the first weekend of July for Valaquenta, and wish you all good fortune until then.


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Heh! Hurray for schedule syncronicity! I suspect it's due to the Hive Mind effect created by such a massive cooperative kin effort as Weatherstock. *nodnod* It also had Selgar and me and Harperella dancing in sync from the start a few times yesterday instead of having to wait and sync up after the first one had started. :-D


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Time for Book Club, after such a long hiatus! Here are some discussion topics for the Valaquenta:

(1) Let's play the Epithet Game. For each of the Valar listed in this chapter, see how many three-word phrases you can come up with to rename them, describe them, define their roles. For example Manwe = Lord of Eagles. It doesn't have to be an "of" phrase either, you can be creative, just limit it to three words each time!

The list of Valar and Valier:
Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien, Tulkas
Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana, Nessa

(2) Melkor comes up in this chapter most frequently as a foil for other Valar. What do we learn about Manwe and Aule, in particular, from the way they are contrasted with Melkor?

(3) Another fun game whenever dealing with a mythological styled pantheon: If you were an elf of the First Age coming to dwell in Valinor, which of the Valar do you think you would be most partial to? (It's like that old favorite game in Latin class - which Olympian would be your patron god? Mine would be Minerva, by the way. :-) She invented the flute *and* knitting, and she's smart. Though with that spear-and-shield thing she's got going, maybe I should have been a warden instead of a loremaster...) And another fun variant of this game: Nominate a patron Valar for your fellow bandmates. :-)

(4) With 15 new(ish) characters to keep straight in this chapter, are there any of the Valar you have questions about or aren't quite sure what their roles are?

(5) Some of the Valar will come into the rest of the Silmarillion much more than others do; e.g. Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna all play significant roles. But some of them you'll never hear of again! Yet their mentions here ar intriguing, such as Vaire the Weaver and Este gentle healer. Time to brainstorm a little about how these "minor" Valar might actually be working in Arda behind the scenes, even in the LOTRO time setting!

(6) Lastly we have a description of the Maiar and of Melkor and the Maiar that followed him. Time permitting we'll talk about these, but I suspect the questions above about the Valar may be all we have time for today!


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

And now, since I've finally discovered how to log just one chat channel...here is a record of this week's Book Club!

### Chat Log: OW/Books 07/03 04:28 PM ###
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'And also.....Undye-able.....'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'You may now be known as Locney, Hey! Look Over there!'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Heh!'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Well I haven't read up yet as I'm just joining on short notice today, but I have read it before so as soon as I'm refreshed where we are I may have input to add.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'maybe a quick summary of the chapter to remind me of the content?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'He may now be known as Locney, the Saffron Burg!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, this chapter is all about the Valar'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It is basically a rundown of the pantheon'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's a list really.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'lets see - today is Valaquenta, right?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Names, titles, jobs'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'ah. okay'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'And RP wise, Loc doesn't have that Outfit on him. It's hidden in his house, sense he's trying to keep the Rohirrim thing a secret.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Wonderful stuff for us mythology buffs :-D'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep! The Valaquenta - tale of the Valar'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I was most intrigued by some of the hinted at stories. Manwe and Varda, and Ulmo and Osse.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'If my elven etymologizing is correct :-D'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'And their many, many names'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed! So many offhand comments that must have great stories behind them, Gaia'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'all right - I already have 2 questions...i may have brought one of them up earlier with Ainulindale'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Remember, we have a Silmarillion Projects thing going on...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Someone might want to flesh out those offhand comments in short stories for your projects :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I'm keen on developing those two. The hint that Melkor tried and failed at impressing Varda is most enticing.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '*sighs* I'll log on to minecraft....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ys Andeon?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, that is'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Didn't finish reading it,, Loc? I do not think you're alone in that :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '1 - Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar" does everyone else have that sub-title?'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Hm? Well.....Yes, but I was refering to the projects!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'my question being..."according to the lore of the eldar"...sounds curously...suspect...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'as if the eldar might be limited in their whole account...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and secondly...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes. This is an imperfect version then. What the Eldar believe about the Valar.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, I have that subtitle'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I believe the idea is that the Silmarillion is Bilbo's translation from elvish accounts in Rivendell'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the first line...In the beginning, Eru, which in the elvish tongue is called illuvatar...'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Well, who else could account for those kind of things ?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Of tales and legends written down by the elves after they learned them from the Valar in Valinor'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'A translation of a theory....'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'my second question is, if the elves call it illuvatar, who calls it Eru?...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'if its an account according to the lore of the eldar, after all'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Eru is a quenya name, too, it just means the one'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I made a note of that line also. My question was what language is Eru if Iluvatar is elvish.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Right, Aethel'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Both are Quenya'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And that's a good question. Is Eru quenya or just...his original name?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Maybe Eru is more of a title and Iluvatar the name the elves gave him.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'well, who taught the elves their language?'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Likewise, one may refer to god as the lord...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'They already spoke when found'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Yahweh ;)'
Your friend, Tarnorili, has come online.
[To lmbbookclub] 'Right. When Orome discovered the elves...they were singing.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Eru more of a description'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Already had language.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'God...whome the elves call Lord...see, its when you add the distinction of the elves calling him one thing that it gets confusing...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, I'll accept that given the storytelling style, they give one quenyan name...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That comes up in a few chapters on...Of the Coming of the Elves :-D'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and then a seperate quenyan name as an alternate name...for whatever reason'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, alternate names are no oddity in this book...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Eru, according to the Etymologies is Noldorin for waste, desert.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'mmm, not so sure about that. but then, if they were born with it ... who made them with those words?'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Elves are very mysterious....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'EVERYTHING important has multiple names :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Like me!'
[To lmbbookclub] '*makes Locney an honorary Mysterious Elf*'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Illuvatar means something like father of all... Then, Eru is what he is, Illuvatar what he does'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Woo'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Eru is The One'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The arrival of the elves is indeed mysterious. The Valar discover them after they've been around for a while...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Before all there was The One'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Makes sense.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sorry for the early derailment...but thank you all for the input...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But the elves themselves have no history before this one that the Valar taught them, it seems. Who remembers those early days?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Not in the etymologies it isn't. We have to take care about meaning of a name and the language from which it comes.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No derailment; it's quite relevant'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Naw! This is good stuff, Andeon!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Any other thoughts or questiosn before we dive into the discussion topics?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Wasn't this the chapter that ends up with a brief mention of Olorin?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'wanting to track down Gaiagil's last response...'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Not at the moment, but I certainly am learning some things.'
[To lmbbookclub] '(N.B.: I've got church in less than two hours...we've got a lot to talk about before then :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes it was, Jonathson!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the etymologies was a reference to...muiran's last comment?'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Olorin in mentionned, but rather in the middle, alonside with Lorien'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'But what about the wedding, Lenn?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Olorin is listed along with the other Maiar - as the wisest of them'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now, can anyone tell me how we know what Olorin's more familiar name is?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes. Names often transcend language. We use names from other languages without understanding their meaning in the original.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Gandalf'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Gandalf !'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yes, we know he's gandalf...but WHY do we know he's gandalf...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i assume that comes later...cuz I didn't notice it anywhere in this section...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'He mentioned it himself in the LOTR, as I recall.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Because he says in the west I was known as ...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Jonathson is correct...well, indirectly'
[To lmbbookclub] 'At least, if I recall this correctly...'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Because you told me.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'We looked it up later in the Silmarilion when we studied the Hobbit. At this point, we don't KNOW he's Gandalf.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Faramir tells Frodo, upon their first meeting, how Gandalf once told Faramir a list of names he has been known by'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'In a paragraph where he speaks of different names the different races given to him. But I vaguely recall it was....Yes, what you said'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'aha...nice'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Well, this is relevant to lotr, really... The istari that cared the most for the free people of all kind learned with Lorien, who deals with hope and sorrow'
[To lmbbookclub] 'At least I *think* it was Faramir. So, indirectly - Gandalf doesn't say it himself in the book, but had said it in the past and Faramir relates it.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Wonderfully complex :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes - the connection to Lorien and Nienna is a wonderful insight into Gandalf's character'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'That brings up the question - though - why didn't Gondor pay more attention to Gandalf if they presumably knew elvish lore?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm. Good question. Perhaps because their knowledge of lore was rusty?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's mentioned in a late section of the Silm: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, I think that speaks to the mindset of Gondor at the time...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Also, Gandalf wasn't advertising those names very widely. Shows his trust of Faramir that he mentioned the list at all...'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Well, Gandalf says to Boromir that much of tyhis lore has been forgotten'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'important information fades with time, supplanted with new learnings. especially for the short lived races'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh, good call, Gaia! So we will hear more of this topic...in many, many weeks when we get to that chapter :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Very few in Gondor actually studied and their lore was not necessarily complete.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'it also focused on men, not the elves'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Remember that Faramir was ridiculed for spending too much time in the archives.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Tam.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Good points'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, in the interest of time - there's a lot of Valar to cover here! - let's begin the topics.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'The later years of Gondor they tended to prize valor in battle over depth of knowledge and wisdom'
[To lmbbookclub] '(1) Let's play the Epithet Game. For each of the Valar listed in this chapter, see how many three-word phrases you can come up with to rename them, describe them, define their roles.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye, Kinnickinic!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'For example Manwe = Lord of Eagles. It doesn't have to be an "of" phrase either, you can be creative, just limit it to three words each time!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So I've got a list of Valar here, let's start with Manwe'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Describe him in 3 words. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Air Warden.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Master of Sky'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Uhhhh.....Pass?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Dearest of Iluvatar.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Brother of Melkor...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Mightiest of All.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'You guys are good at this :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Lorien : You Don't Have to Suffer Alone.'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Thats much miore than 3 words, though, sorry'
[To lmbbookclub] '3 words though! Gotta be concise :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I....uhh.....still have issues absorbing the Sil.....'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Cloud Master.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sssss'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No worries, Loc!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'First of Kings...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Is it okay if I do two word ones...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No no! 3! Expand them :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Lenn is such the teacher, is she not?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Dwells with Varda...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Lord of Eagles?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Then they are all of things...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Expand with an adjective, perhaps?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Master of Clouds. Warden of Air'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Justice for All'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'tee hee.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Wise Cloud Master'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Breath of Arda...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'There you go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Fierce Air Warden'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ARda...Varda...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Knowing Sky Lord'
[To lmbbookclub] 'These are lovely!'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Farsighted one'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, now let's have the first of the Valier, the Queens of the Valar. 3 words for Varda. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Light of Iluvatar'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Gittuv my Wurld'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Dwells with Manwe...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Fairer Than Any'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Maker of Light'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Melkor's Worst Fear'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Too Many Names...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I like that one, Andeon.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Dearest to Elves'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Isn't her other name Elbareth?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, she is Elbereth'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sky Star Ruler'
[To lmbbookclub] 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel...and all that'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Shot Down Melkor...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Joyful Light Power'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Rejected Melkor's Discord'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Manwe's Best Eyes'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Who Crown Mountains ?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This is an impressive list! Next up...Ulmo! Describe the sea god in 3 words...Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Doesn't help that the array of names each is given, is sometimes combined with the names of ones they associate with, or names where they live, or alternate names for where they live...*sigh*'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Purest of Love'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Deep Sea Lord'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So very true, Andeon'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Deepest in thought'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'All-Knowing News Keeper'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'oops, mis-spliced there'
[To lmbbookclub] 'A mark of Tolkien's love of language though, that he can't stop with one name for the characters most important to him...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Master of Waves'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I like that one, Tam!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...Ulumuri Music Maker! (The Ulumuri...his horns whose music those who hear, never forget)'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Greatest in song'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Hear Me Foam !'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Ulmo the Restless...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Nice one!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Heh, I like the foam one!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Ulmo the Lonely.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes. Interesting that the first line after his name is "He is alone"...'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Speaks through gulls'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Speaks through waves'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Heh. I might not be good at this, but all of these to paint a good picture.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I wonder if he is indeed lonely though? Or just...a very introverted Valar?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Wonderful, Loc! That was what I hoped for with this question.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'it says he's alone, not that he's lonely...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's hard to say.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'often alone, seldom lonely'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'No, he is alone at the bottom of the outermost'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'He is lonely among the valar, but maybe one of the most extraverted'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'There are two who are not married besides Melkor. Ulmo and Nienna.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well lets get those two kids together!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'She's too sad for him.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'If we could only have found a good wife for him ...'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'There' s Lorien, I think'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ha! That sounds like an idea for someone's Silmarillion Project.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'he doesn't pay enough attention for her ;)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, next! 3 words for Yavanna. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Do you mean, Irmo, Aethelwyth?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*Lennidhren @#$% this one in the bud*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lover of Trees.'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Mother of Ents'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Beautiful Moss Speaker'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Yavvanna vanna bo banna'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That's four words, Muiran!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'did we skip Aule?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oooh, Muiran, that's 4 words... :-p'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No, Aule will be up next'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'I am sorry, it was Locney's fault'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm alternating Valar/Valier'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah...gotcha'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I am all up in his head!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In the order they were listed at the start of the chapter'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Maker of Trees'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In case anyone wants to follow along with the list :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Light Tree Queen'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Mother of Growth'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'The Green Woman...'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Tears for Stumps'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Great Earth Mama'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'See that girl... watch that seen... dig in the light tree queen...'
[To lmbbookclub] '*laugh*'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: '*scene'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Cool! Aethelwyth!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'These are wonderful :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Mother Nature'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Kementari...o great...the Eldarin have yet another name for her...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Someone's Silmarillion Project could be a poster with a cluster of these epithets for each Vala....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, Aule is up next! 3 words for him...Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I hope you list them on the forums then.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm logging the chat and will definitely do so, Gaia'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Crafter of Earth'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Master of Crafts'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Father of Dwarves'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Lord of Stone!'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Father of Dwarves'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Stumpy Maker'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Too slow, Jonathson ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Melkor's Angelic Twin'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Muiran, count to 3 *grin*'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'lover of beards'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Armorer of Valar'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lover of Yavanna'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Good variety here! Aule is a very busy Vala, isn't he?'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Burn Those Trees !'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'here's one for both of them......the odd couple'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Righteous Self-Singer...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Binder of Melkor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh, that's good, Kinnick!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Wise Master of Rock'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Mentor of Feanor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'How did these two end up together, anyway?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Opposites attract'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'she's the yin to his yang'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He's into earth, she loves trees... Match made in heaven.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Agreed!'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'she digs big muscles'
[To lmbbookclub] '*grin* Good answers!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'dunno...seems like they're connected at a very basic level...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'She likes to be on top'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'It seems quite a dysfunctionnal couple, doesn't it ?'
Your friend, Nelco, has gone offline.
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Earth feeds Nature...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next is Nienna! 3 words for her? Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'She could have gone to Ulmo... She needs earth and water for her things.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Tearful Pity Lover'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'They're proof that in reality all dwarves are in love with elvish women.....Gimli is just one of few not in denial.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Ulmo is just a fling'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sorrow in Wisdom'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Wisdom through sorrow'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I listened to the Tolkien Professor's Silmarillion Seminar on this chapter in preparation for today's meeting...he is really crazy about Nienna.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Great minds, Aethelwyth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So...Tolkien Professor's Patron!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Single for Ulmo...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Olorin's Tearful Tutor'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'She's one of my favorite, too...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Mourner of Wounds'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Singer of Lamentations'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Westward Looking Weeper'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sad Spirit Strengthener'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'might be emo'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Hope from Sorrow'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That bit about her house's windows looking west beyond the boundary of the world...I think that is my favorite thing about her.'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Crying Valier Emo'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'hehe, I never liked any of them. I liked the Noldor'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Endurance in Hope'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, back to the Lords of the Valar: 3 words for Orome. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Hunter and Friend'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Not Too Bright'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lover of Eldar'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Might be red-neck'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Arda's Wild Hunter'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'The First Valar'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Stays in Arda'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Last to come'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Hunter of Melkor'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'We love Orome'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Melkor's Best Bane'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Orome Was Right'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'has a gunrack'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '"Best bane" Gaiagil? or Beast Bane?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I like Melkor's Beast Bane...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'could be both, Andeon.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm! That "Last to Come" one gave me pause, I thought that was Tulkas...but to straighten it out...Tulkas came last to Arda, but Orome was the last to retreat to Valinor!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Should have let him and Tulkas take Melkor out and all his lieutenants when they had a chance'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, next up is Este! If you even remember who she is...give me 3 words for her. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Wasn't it his hound that ffought Sauron?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Healer of Hurts'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Giver of Rest'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lorien's Weariness Remover'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'The Grey Healer'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'one great medic'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Who Is She ?'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'heavy's best friend'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Lesser than Nienna...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Wife of Dreams'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: '^^;'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Heh! Indeed, Aethel - she doesn't really come into the story again after this chapter...'
[lmbbookclub] Merodin: 'My Best Friend?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Gardener of Repose'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Let's try her husband Irmo, also called Lorien after his dwelling place, next. 3 words - go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lord of Visions'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'My favorite zone'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh, not that Lorien!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Peaceful Dream Maker'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'I know hehe'
[To lmbbookclub] 'My homeland Lothlorien is named after the Lorien in Valinor though, I do believe'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'I'm just being satyrical today'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'naaah. really?'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Ask Original Lorien'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! But that name can be confusing, so it's a good thing you brought it up :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Dreamy Lorien Master'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Master of Dreams'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Visionary of Lorien'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'master of spirits...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Brother of Death'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Irmo/Lorien's brother is Namo/Mandos; let's describe him next before returning to the Valier. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Was not there some connection with Galadriel and Irmo?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Lord of Death'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lord of Dead'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Doomsman of Mandos'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Herder of Souls'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Summoner of Slain'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Keeper of Souls'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, may be, Muiran. My memory's fuzzy on that but it will come up in future chapters for sure.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Jailer of Feanor?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Keeper of Memories'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'aren't we switching Irmo and Namor...Namos...whatever his name is'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Just switched to Namo/Mandos, if that's what you mean'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I thought Irmo was keeper of visions and such...and the other guy was the keeper of the dead and such...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Right, Andeon'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Dun Dun Duuuuuun'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Namo is the one in charge of the Halls of Mandos. He knows all peoples' fates.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'oh...missed the switch...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'he does not keep the dead of man'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Keep of Fate'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Proclaimer of Doom'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That is true, Muiran.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And they're brothers too. All the harder to tell which is which. The Feanturi - and Nienna is their sister.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Right.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'or, DOOOOOM, like you really mean it!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'tee hee, Tam'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now another switch, back to the Queens this time. 3 words for Vaire - go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Weaver of Fate'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Storied Web Weaver'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Wife of Doom'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Teller of Tales'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Vaire the Chronicler...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Fortune Teller Weaver'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Busy Weaving lady...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Wouldn't you just love to see her tapestries? Sounds like a Silmarillion Project for someone!'
[To lmbbookclub] '*ponders multicolor knitting projects*'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Muse of Storytellers'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Alas! Weaving escapes me!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now how about Tulkas, the final Lord of the Valar? 3 words - Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'I imagine her, wishing history to stop, just two minutes...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I weave all the time, but usually only after a few beers'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ha!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Last of List'
[To lmbbookclub] '*grin* There's two more Valier - the Queens - to go, though'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Strong BurlyWrestler'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'loves to fight'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Valar's Button-man'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hercules in Arda...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*erg...too many names...*'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Fight ! Fight ! Fight !'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Strength in Battle'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Tulkas? had a fast bit of scrolling there :)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lord of War'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Astaldo the Valiant...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep, Tulkas'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Nice, Andeon.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Slow to thought ... Fast of Fist'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Conquerer of Enemies'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Needs no steed!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Strength overcomes Speed'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Lives the Now!'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Ready to Laugh'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Sharp sword, Dull Mind'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Avoid His Advice'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Governor of Cal.....wait....woops'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'tee hee, Kinnickinic!'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Get to Choppa!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'There you go, Loc!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What about Tulkas' spouse, Nessa? Let's hear 3 words for her...Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Not my Counsellor'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'erg...switched again'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Lithe Deer Racer'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Swift as Arrows'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Chariots of Fire'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Swift Deer Friend'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Green-Lawn Dancer'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'My Other Deer is a Nessa'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Wife of Wrestling'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Receiver of Epithets'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Think we can make it through one more round? The last of the Valar, Vana...Give me 3 words for her. Go!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sister of Orome'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Turner of Letters...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Ever Young Flower'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '(I'm getting a little punchy with the names now...sorry)'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'baaaaad ... that was mine!'
[To lmbbookclub] '(Ha! Don't blame you, after so many names)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Gardener by Footstep'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Bird Song Lover'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yavanna's Kid Sister'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Not Ms White'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Spring Time Walker'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Melian's Gardening Mentor'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Eternal Spring Queen'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, I will call Time now...Take a deep breath after that flood of epithets...Well done, everyone!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now for a somewhat less overwhelming game'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That was fun. I'm glad I made myself a list of Valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Wait! Before we continue...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes Loc?'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Lennidhren ... Mistress of Text ... oh, we've stopped. okay ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'When is the wedding?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Tamirien - Heh! I'll take it.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Vana and Orome were married long ago...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Wedding's at 10pm eastern, with rehearsal at 8:30, or as soon as I can get home from church'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Locney: That Darn Burg!'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: '-lare'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'sans 'e''
[To lmbbookclub] 'LOL! OK, no, the ext game is *not* epithetizing ourselves...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It is:'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Another fun game whenever dealing with a mythological styled pantheon: If you were an elf of the First Age coming to dwell in Valinor, which of the Valar do you think you would be most partial to?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Titles are better when given by another, Locney...'
[To lmbbookclub] '(It's like that old favorite game in Latin class - which Olympian would be your patron god? Mine would be Minerva, by the way. :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'he invented the flute *and* knitting, and she's smart. Though with that spear-and-shield thing she's got going, maybe I should have been a warden instead of a loremaster...)'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I know. But I still like it!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And another fun variant of this game: Nominate a patron Valar for your fellow bandmates. :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Justicia for me :)'
[lmbbookclub] Aethelwyth: 'Either Nienna or Elbereth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Copy paste fails me: Make that *She* invented the flute et al...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'For a loremaster like me, Vaire seems a good choice... or Varda.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Uhhh......The....Valar-y one....'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'of the Valar ... Ulmo. He never turned his back'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'the weaver and the hunter'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'For a Burg like Locney, maybe Aule as he is enamored of earthly things.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I haven't even thought out my own answer to this question in LOTR terms, just Latin ones. Hm....'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I would never be an elf...too dedicated to mankind...'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Hmm.....Would he like gimmicky things?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, I'd have to say Orome fits my mindset best...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Here's the list again if you need Valar to choose from:'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien, TulkasVarda, Yavanna, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana, Nessa'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'So you are a man instead?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Andeon, Maybe Tulkas would also serve?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup...dwarf second...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Any hunter without Orome must be taken out and re-educated.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Tulkas is too...thoughtless...I like him, but Orome fits better'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Orome strikes me as a commander...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Who would take Nienna as his/her patroness, I wonder.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think Lennidhren's patron would be Vaire, with that weaving of lore...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '"For there Orome would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'if thats not me, I don't know what other Valar is...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It does sound like a good fit, Andeon.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed it does'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I like Ulmo. Never turned his back on middle earth, is a rogue like Melkor but constructive rather than destructive. the ultimate confirmed bachelor.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'You cannot have Orome, he is mine'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'although I had a brief flirtation with Nienna...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'bringing hope seemed like an excellent calling for a captain as well'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I like Varda, too, because she is the valie of stars and light. Also part of lore collecting.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Nienna is pretty in a sad sort of way.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Want to take a shot at the variant of the game? Nominate a patron Vala for your kinsfolk? If anyone comes to mind....'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think Byrdie/Nia would work well with Este, Healer of Hurts and Weariness.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Strangely, Galenhir's founding concept for the Lonely Mountain Band is tied to Ulmo...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Good one, Gaia!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I can see Galen with Ulmo.'
[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: 'aw, I was just thinking I need to read/study these'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'or Aule... There's so much Dwarf in him.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'well, there is no abuser of pie and ale among the Valar so ... Melkor fir this lot ;)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, interesting, Andeon! Ulmo seems tied to music in general, too, with the Ulumuri'
[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: 'I am loving watching the discussion though!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hi Byrdie! *grin*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'all right, thats the second time i've heard the term Ulumuri...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ulmo's horns'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The deep music'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Did I pick well for you Byrdie?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, there it is'
[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: 'I think so, yes indeed :) I like it!'
[To lmbbookclub] '"Those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts..."'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'You also like to help folks grow, so Yavanna is a good one too.'
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[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Loc, what about Irmo for you. Lord of Visions and Dreams. We could add schemes to that...'
Lotropad settings saved.
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[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: 'now I want to make an alt...Estevanna'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Great name!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh I like that, Byrdie!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Vaire the weaver strikes me as a Lennidhren Valar...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'course, somebody may already have said it...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That was the one I chose, Andeon :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: 'weaver of sorties and yarn :)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, i figured as much...good choice...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'What about Harperella? Este? Nessa? Vana?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, now that we have delved into familiarizing ourselves with each of the Valar...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ohhh, Harp!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or at least one of them...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yeah, harp...i was thinking about her...'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Varda for Harp'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm. Varda? She is the leader'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Mandos for her.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Varda'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Uhhh....I think so, Gaia. Sorry. The phone pulled me away....Again!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Why Mandos?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I agree on Varda! Good call...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'why not? proclaimer of fate, holder of the future'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, the fate aspect does go well for her. Always the organizer...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'But the Doomsman part is too gloomy I think'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, moving on from the roll call of gods, I have some further questions about themes in this chapter. Starting with:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(2) Melkor comes up in this chapter most frequently as a foil for other Valar. What do we learn about Manwe and Aule, in particular, from the way they are contrasted with Melkor?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I"ve always like the contrast between aule and melko'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'primarily, that they both wanted to make their OWN craft in creation...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Right, Andeon. One for good and one for personal gain.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but Melkor did so in opposition to the "plan", While Aule submitted himself to the authority of Illuvatar'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'except for Melkor's mean streak, I rather like him'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Authority?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'OK, attack Tam after this'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aule's thought of creation is to better the world. Melkor's is to possess it.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'he didn't buckle under just because someone dictated their will on him'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'no, I'm serious'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Dictated?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He is rebellion.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That can lead to independence.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'It's why I like Ulmo best.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'But what he did actually made Arda sweeter in the end'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'At first Iluvatar smiles at Melkor's taking initiative.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'The meldoy was more complex and took in dissonance'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 're: Aule - "Both, also, desired to make things of their won that should be new and unthough of by others...but Aule remained faithful to Eru and submitteed all that he did to his will"'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'doesn't matter. besides, that was his mean streak which is what I don't like about him'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'He was free will?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Except when Aule broke the rules and made Dwarves. In that, we see a hint of Melkor.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Mean streak? he was practically a mustache-twirling villian'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All the Ainur acted with free will though, remember - Iluvatar suggested a theme to them, and they all improvised music from that'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'see, Andeon hit it on the nose. submitted for approval. Melkor didn't submit. that's why I admire him'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Disobedience.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Andeon likes the "submitted" part'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '*twirls Mustache* I'm sorry, what?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'But in music, do you submit to the melody?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its important to have authority...don't get me wrong, not ALL authority is correct...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'If you do, no harmonies come, Muiran.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Nor indeed other aspects'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'but a solo song is often the sweetest'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aule admitted the dwarf thing was a mistake though.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or, I should say, its important to realize that YOU (and I, and all of us) cannot hold our selves as absolute authorities over all others...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'pure'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But a mistimed solo...not so sweet'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Indeed, in a way Melkor or Sauron are authorities to the minions they commanded.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'I KNEW it, dwarves are a MISTAKE!'
[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: '*giggle*'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'and I hold myself an absolute authority over Loc'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The problem with Melkor is his desires are misaligned with the greater plan.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Yes but does not a mother still give love to a child that might be considered a 'mistake'?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'But in the end he WAS part of the greater plan'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'His concern is for his own power, not the bettering of the world.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Yes the would would not have been as it was but for him'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'er Yet'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its true...the act of creating the dwarves was a violation of authority...but the dwarves themselves proved to be a blessing...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Muiran, I agree that that is part of the plan, but I'm not sure Iluvatar thought of it before the music battle.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'which is why, i expect, they were allowed to move forward'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Hey......Muiran....Come 'ere fer a second....I got somethin' ta tell ya......*hides [47 Saffron's Lipstick] behind his back*'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'At the end Eru says as much does he not?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I agree, Andeon.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'his concern was for his own power OVER that of the others. own power on its own and unsullied is fine. He stepped over the line'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'So that all would be a paradise such as Valinor was, but was it?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'In the end, Aule did the right thing by suppressing his creation until the bigger plan could unfold.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Dwarves should be SUPPRESSED'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The dwarves do turn out to bring much to the world.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed they do!'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'I like this conversation more and more'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Tam. I agree completely.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Dwarves are USELESS'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Dwarf suppression time is over now, Muiran. :-p'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'make al the fun you want, but Dwarves are stalwart companions and friends for generations...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'No racism in this work'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'I am going to be asked not to return again, aren't I?'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'from a societies point of view, aule was right and submitted to the masses. but by doing so he curtailed his creativity and what then was lost because of it? we'll never know'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Tolkien's view of dwarves is mixed, as his view of men, hobbits and even elves.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyway, let's table the Dwarves discussion until the chapter where they actually get created, shall we?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Elves are granted the biggest fall of all: Kinslaying.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Gotta move along before I have to go. :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Yes, let's not talk of that either'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Next'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next topic!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Some of the Valar will come into the rest of the Silmarillion much more than others do; e.g. Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna all play significant roles. But some of them you'll never hear of again!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'go len go!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yet their mentions here ar intriguing, such as Vaire the Weaver and Este gentle healer. Time to brainstorm a little about how these "minor" Valar might actually be working in Arda behind the scenes, even in the LOTRO time setting!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's true, Tam. The Dwarves could have been even better.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Tolkien just treated all races with a degree of reality'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'To him all had strengths and flaws.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Kinnickinic. Part of his thoroughness.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Vaire is the Fates, recording'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Yavanna sounds like she lives in the shire...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Este, is well ...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I expect she was going about her business as usual, keeping things alive and growing...'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'She would likely love the shire.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'List of names again in case you need some to think of:'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think of Este when Aragorn heals others.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien, TulkasVarda, Yavanna, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana, Nessa'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Nienna probably had a field day in the war of the ring...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Hope from sorrow...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the whole series of books is basically about that'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'So how is Este active?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Treebeard makes me think of Yavanna, and the White tree of Minas Tirith.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Este gives the kings the power of healing in my mind.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Legolas was warned not to go near the sea. Yet once he did he seemed, er, almost spell-bound, perhaps by one of the Vala'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Ah, I agree Gai'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed! He heard Ulmo's call...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'The horns and all'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Or Osse's song... Osse is the lord of shores...'
Your friend, Byrdie, has gone offline.
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Always liked Osse'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'A little jealousy on Galadriels part, perhaps?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'True! We haven't even taken a look at the Maiar in this chapter yet - but in some ways they are much more active in Middle-earth than the Valar are'
Floaty names are now OFF.
Your friend, Byrdie, has come online.
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Nienna comes into play in The Children of Hurin.'
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[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Eh? The ones who all die tragically in the end?'
Lotropad settings saved.
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[To lmbbookclub] 'Those children, yes'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye. The sister who loses her memory.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'and marries her brother.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'And the hope part was ....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So GREEK, that story'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'I love that story best of all. Turin Turambar.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Vaire makes me think Shelob.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'that's Nienor'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'if I remember the spelling correctly'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, Nienor Niniel'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Same root word: Nienna, Nienor. They are both about tears.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Ah, OK, so who its Nienna then?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'er is'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'This is worse than a Hindu panthoeon'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'er pantheon'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: '*chuckles*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Shelob is actually Vaire's evil twin.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '"Twin"?E?'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '?!?*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'actually, I still say Ungoliant is an outsider...but we'll get to that at some point, i'm sure'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'So she was a spider too?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'She was just a good spider.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'She could take any form she wanted.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*are you a good spider? or a bad spider?*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Tee hee.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Ohh! Andeon can do that! He turns into a spider every so often!'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'So there were good spiders in Tolkien then?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'They were the one's catching the misquitos'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sure, the ones that eat bugs...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'heh'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Where do you all think Tom Bombadil came from? My husband thinks he might be Valar or maiar.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I think he's Tolkein.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Tolkien*'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That seems the mmost reasonable possibility, Gaia'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Maiar'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Speaking of Maiar...let's talk about the Maiar mentioned in this chapter :-)'
Floaty names are now ON.
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[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Do we have time?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I've got about 15 minutes'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He also thinks he could be Iluvatar in Middle Earth. Oldest and Fatherless.'
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[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Name them all Lenn'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right then'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Keep talking just going to change to my field gear for the dungeon runs.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Which witch bewitched the switch that snitched the rich stitch for a glitch'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Melian, Olorin, Sauron and Valaraukar'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ilmare, Eonwe, Osse, Uinen, Melian, Olorin, are the good ones'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Valaraukar?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I forgot the handmaidens!'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Who is that?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And of the ones following Melkor, only Sauron and the Balrogs (that's the Valaraukar) are named here'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Balrogs'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Ah'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Which makes it all the more impressive that the House of the Hammer of Wrath coudl take down the Balrogs at Gondolin :-D'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Wait, Balrogs? As in more then one?!?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'I wonder if Gandalf recognized Fred the Balrog from back hom'
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'heh'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'aye ... plural'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh yes, lots of Balrogs at Gondolin'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'He never did like that guy'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'the first age was a hard one!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye and worms.'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'When Feonor died wasn't it in a tangle with like 5 of them?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And robot drakes'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Something like that anyway. Constructs of metal.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But!'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '......'
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'the balrog in Moria was just one that had been imprisoned there and then let loose by the dwarves'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We will speak of Gondolin in later chapters :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'What happens to a Balrog when they die, I wonder?'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Trapped under the wreck of the Valar probably'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Alright I'm changed and ready to go when we're done here Andeon.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think it is about time to wrap this up. So, any final thoughts on this chapter? Or questions about all the confusing names and such?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'My favorite is the Osse/Uinen story.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, I can tell you what happened to one dead balrog...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'in fact, I could take you there...'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'So, if Gandalf was one of those, who was Saruman?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Saruman and the other Istari (Wizards) are Maiar also'
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'the same'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I assume all the Istari were Maiar.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I don't think they die. just sucked into the nothingness of the void'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Just not named in this chapter'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'I mean - Sarumans death implies he was refused permission to go home.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He's just hanging around the Halls of Mandos.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'But so was Sauron'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'He did not just dissipate'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'and he was sucked to the bottom of the ocean'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'They're having tea with Feanor.'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Playing checkers'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh my. There's a Silmarillion Project idea right there, Gaia'
[To lmbbookclub] '"High Tea in the Halls of Mandos"'
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'I'm glad I stumbled across you all :) Nice to see my kin :)'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'Telling the same stories over and over and ....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It would be very...what's that French play...No Exit? Huis Clos?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It would be rather like Stoppards "rosencrantz and gildenstern are dead..."'
[lmbbookclub] Kinnickinic: 'Speaking of tea....it's high time for afternoon tea here.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And like that too, Gaia! Heh.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Or Waiting for Godot...'
[To lmbbookclub] '"L'enfer, c'est les autres"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'please no...no godot...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Translated: Hell is other people. That's a very bizarre play.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'How's doing what now?'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '....I agree with that statement somedays....'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'a quote from Sarte'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sartre, right! I think Huis Clos is the French title, and in English it's No Exit.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, that's right.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Read that in college or a French lit survey class'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its sounding like the book club is winding down...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyway! It seems we have moved on from discussing the Silmarillion to...French literature. *grin* I think that means that this Book Club meeting has come to an end'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and I think len has places to be...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Good meeting.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Time for a quick readaloud if anyone would like to do one, or we can disperse to SNS if not'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Yer!'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: 'no time to say hello, good-bye, she's late she's late she's late'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Locney!'
[lmbbookclub] Muiran: '(not a quote from Sarte)'
[To lmbbookclub] './scold Locney'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So. Any takers for readaloud?'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I love Hide-in-plain-sight.....'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I'm always happy to readaloud...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I need to go actually. I'm not camping because I'm ill and all this thinking is making my head spin. Farewell all.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh dear! Feel better, Gaia!'
[lmbbookclub] Byrdie: 'be well, Gai :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'll start inviting for a quick readaloud raid...just a few minutes worth before I hav eto go'
Attempting to invite andeon into fellowship.
(Waiting for recruit to accept or decline ...)
Attempting to invite locney into fellowship.
(Waiting for recruit to accept or decline ...)
The loot rule has changed to Round Robin with Roll/Pass.
The loot quality has changed to Uncommon.
You have joined the chat room for your Fellowship, Fellowship chat is now available.
You have joined a Fellowship.
Attempting to invite terrador into fellowship.
(Waiting for recruit to accept or decline ...)
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I hope ya get well!'
Terrador has joined your Fellowship.
Locney has joined your Fellowship.
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Well, it means I might make some of A&T tomorrow, but I think I'll just attend instead of helping.'
Attempting to invite tamirien into fellowship.
(Waiting for recruit to accept or decline ...)
Attempting to invite kinnickinic into fellowship.
(Waiting for recruit to accept or decline ...)
Kinnickinic has joined your Fellowship.
Tamirien has joined your Fellowship.
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm special, Cap'n'
You have joined the chat room for your raid, raid chat is now available.
You have joined the chat room for your Fellowship, Fellowship chat is now available.
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyone in book club want in the readaloud raid who's not yet been invited?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Aye'
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: who's got less morale then an LK?
Attempting to invite jonathson into fellowship.
(Waiting for recruit to accept or decline ...)
Jonathson has joined your Raid.
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: Hehehehe
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, Andeon volunteered to read I believe; anyone else want to also?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Go for it!'
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: Who's the story weaver again?
[To lmbbookclub] 'Last call for invites to readaloud raid if you want to hear Andeon reading from the Valaquenta :-)'
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: No, which Valar is that one.
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: yeah
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
[To Raid] Vaire, right
[Fellowship] Tamirien: I presume we have to have voice on
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: Ok
[To Raid] Yes, you'll need to enable voice chat to hear this
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: That's mine....since I love stories, poems, and other written word
[To Raid] Should all use /ra instead of /f for chat too - or the /lmbbookcclub channel - we have more than 6 listening :-)
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'Manwe is cool :)'
[To Raid] Heh!
[To Raid] Mostly they just mean "pronounce this syllable as separate from the other vowels"
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
Jonathson has acquired a [Blackened Feather].
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: Read Vaele
[Raid] Tamirien: nah :) well done
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: I have no mic
[Raid] Tamirien: and that's why I like Ulmo best! ;)
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: So could you?
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: And yay, Tinki might be interested in my art sale :D
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
Jonathson has acquired a [Blackened Feather].
[To Raid] More named horns!
Jonathson has acquired a [Cracked Beak].
Jonathson has acquired a [Dusky Wing].
[To Raid] Well read!
[To Raid] Anyone else? I have no mic here
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'I have not been able to get my mic to work sad'
[To Raid] And it looks like the internet's about to DC too, just in case this goes through...
[To Raid] Ah! I'm still here
[To Raid] But it is time for me to be going
[To lmbbookclub] 'Thanks everyone for joining the discussion today!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Quite a fun one, if I do say so myself'
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'Thank you for having me :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next week we'll be discussiong the next chapter: Of the Beginning of Days'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And don't forget to be working on those Silmarillion Projects in the meantime :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'thank you, as always, lennidhren...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: '<curtsies>'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i really enjoy this, and I'm glad I have the time to do it...so short on time these days...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'hehe, I stirred the pot with Melkor ;) but really enjoyed the discussion'
Jonathson has left your Raid.
[lmbbookclub] Terrador: 'Until this evenings practice and performance, I must be on my way.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Is this weekly?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yes...'
Terrador has left your Raid.
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'aye. 1pm pacific time, sundays'
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: Ah the rohan stuff.
Tamirien has left your Raid.
[Fellowship] Kinnickinic: Trying to get funds to preorder so I can get that stuff.
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'allr ight - thanks all - off to gather the SNS...'


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

**doesn't want to play the epithet game again**

it was fun once, but I'm not sure how much more I could take...

beyond that, I had a blast - identifying our iconic valar, some of the reads - sadly, i'd say that it was hard to come up with a lot to cover, as so much of the passage is essentially identifying certain characters

but I had a blast regardless, and I'd recommend to anyone that can make it, attend the book club - its informative, its invigorating, it's intellectually challenging, it's friendly and non-judgemental (except for Muiran and his dwarf thing :)) and all in all its a blast - and Lennidhren, you've been an excellent guide and teacher - thank you for this


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CGriffin
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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Very sorry to have missed this. Hopefully my blindness will be cured soon... sad

Anyway, I had to chime in on Tom:
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He also thinks he could be Iluvatar in Middle Earth. Oldest and Fatherless.'

An interesting take. I was reading the Fellowship over the weekend (since I had no other way into Middle Earth!) and I can't quote it now, but I got the distinct impression from the Tom chapter that he was not Maiar... Something about him predating everything... The possibility of Illuvatar hadn't occured to me though. I quite like that thought...


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Hi, my name's Camara (or Serulluin/Saker/Ealswyth/Drengor/Hinalagon/Heglin/Laurellana/Waryn/Solanacae/etc) and I'm an altoholic...

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