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Lilikate

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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

I wish you joy at the sights! ./hug


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Elimraen
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Thank you, it was so wonderful! Here's an album and here are some highlights!

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In their spot!!
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Toasting the bookclub before the man himself :) <3
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Sorry for such a huge post, I narrowed them down as much as I could! :S


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Araewenel, Linhael, Elimraen, Celebnel, Muinalasse, Nallalimel, Shadowbell, the Elvanui lot. Twitter: @AraeElimraen
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Oh, Elimraen, those are really fantastic! Thanks so very much for sharing with us!

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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The last session of the LMB Book Club will be Saturday, July 18th at 3:30 PM server time, at the Bird and Baby Inn and via /lmbbookclub. We will be discussing Chapter XVIII: The Death of Turin, making concluding comments, and playing/singing two songs. The songs are 6-(Keli)Disaster and 7-(Cenn)ManOnTheMoon.

I will post the chat log from the last session later today.

Thank you!

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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Children of Hurin
by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session X, 5 July 2015, Chapter XVII: The Death of Glaurung

Attendees: Mithmenelien, Malphos, Byrcha, Lilikate, Mornawen, Anthemisa, Corulin, Lhinnthel, Hollyberye, Bavelbella and possibly others


Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band BookClub. We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to continue discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien, in this, our tenth session. All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions. Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub. As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points. However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly.'

Hollyberye: 'First, though, Elimraen is at the orginal Bird and Baby Inn in Oxford!'

Byrcha: 'What fun!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, indeed! She is posting to our forum book club thread.'

Mornawen: '*cheers*'

Hollyberye: 'Lucky'

Chapter XVII: The Death of Glaurung

Byrcha: 'Oh! you gave away the suspense of the chapter! :P'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I did, didn't I? :)'

Hollyberye: 'The chapter opens with Turin Turambar and his companions making their way by stealth at night toward Glaurung. However, Dorlas’s nerves fail him, so it is just Turin and Hunthor. They hear the “snarling of the Great Worm in his watchful sleep” and the reek is so overwhelming that they are dizzy.'

Hollyberye: 'It causes them to retch and Turin fears they use their waning strength to no avail. Turambar sinks into a dream, in which all his will is given to clinging, though a black tide sucked and gnawed at his limbs.'

Hollyberye: 'He is awoken by a great noise and quivering walls of the chasm. “He stirs. The hour is upon us. Strike deep, for two must strike now for three.”'

Byrcha: 'The dream is a bit symbolic of his struggle against fate/Morgoth.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!! Very good point Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Comments on the evil magic and aura stemming from Glaurung? Is Dorlas’s inability to go forward completely understandable or intentional? And how does Turin resist this “black tide that sucks and gnaws on him”?'

Malphos: 'You can simply see it as an effect of the poisonous stench of the dragon, but that would not fit into the overall magic/black evil scheme.'

Byrcha: 'Understandable to some extent -- Turin is the Hero, Dorlas doesn't quite measure up (though I think there are other reasons later).'

Malphos: 'Again it is intentionally not "explained", I think. Feeling and athmosphere is the most important thing. Heroes against all dread?'

Hollyberye: 'By the end of this chapter I felt I had underestimated Glaurung and his magic. Forgetting Morgoth for the moment, I think he was full of evil magic, very powerful in a hideous way.'

Malphos: 'Yes, he seems to be a real power, not only mighty size, teeth and fire.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, the aura of the dragon is as dangerous as the claws/teeth/breath.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think Dorlas was afraid of the great rushing water or the heights of the cliffs, a fear within him he had not known before.'

Mornawen: 'I wondered about the stench, it's described so vividly, but I don't think I've ever smelled anything close to that.'

Hollyberye: 'I wonder how Tolkien dreamed up the overwhelming stench? I mean that is very effective--stench can be completely overwhelming.'

Mornawen: 'It made me wonder about the trenches of WWI.'

Hollyberye: 'Your focus is only on the stench if it is powerful. Yes Morawen, that crossed my mind! How much the conditions in WWI played on his enormous imagination.'

Malphos: 'and failing waste system in the summer.'

Byrcha: 'Hmm, good point! You could think it up logically, but the imagery is a bit more than that.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I personally can barely stand to be close to a dog dropping, I can only imagine what this dragon was like. And we drove through a town in the south when I was a child and the stench of chemical plants was hideous--could never live there. Tt would affect everything--and this was tenfold, it sounds. Well, Tolkien uses it to great effect.'

Hollyberye: 'Also when I first read this, I thought Dorlas not being able to go forward was understandable, but more on him later.'

Malphos: 'But it is not tolerated by the two others.'

Hollyberye: 'Also, Turin's resistance--well he was remarkable, no matter what else.'

Lilikate: 'Good I was unclear as to why Dorlas wouldn't cross the raging torrent.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought he was simply too scared and also could not abide the stench (or the fear).'

Anthemisa: 'Agreed, Turin... amazes me all the time!'

Lilikate: 'I thought he was adverse to drowning?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I also feel I have underestimated Turin.'

Lilikate: 'But Turin just left him there.'

Byrcha: 'This might be Turin's finest moment.'

Hollyberye: 'Fear of drowning is a very powerful fear.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Lili, that was my impression, and then he became ashamed and angry.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Byrcha, I am thinking the same.'

Byrcha: 'Turin was busy trying not to fall/drown himself.'

Hollyberye: 'Using superhuman will.'

Lilikate: 'Probably saved his life if this curse is a real thing.'

Mithmenelien: 'and he didn't notice until late that Dorlas had stayed behind'

Hollyberye: 'that is true, Mith'

Hollyberye: 'Glaurung is beginning his assault on Brethil and it is going as Turin predicted. We learn more about the dragon—he has seven tongues of fire. The stench and heat are overcoming Turin, but he is steadied by Hunthor, who is immediately thereafter killed by a stone hurtling through the air.'

Lilikate: 'What struck me as wonderful was the description of the crevice they climb.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Tolkien took great care with that description.'

Byrcha: 'Poor Hunthor ... just another instant-casualty in Turin's wake.'

Mithmenelien: 'There is such sad irony in that.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, everyone who crosses his path...'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turin cries out that it is ill of him to seek aid or have someone walk in his shadow—now you are alone, O Master of Doom, as you should have known”—why does it take him so long to come to this realization?'

Lilikate: 'I agree, I feel so sorry for the insta death guy.'

Byrcha: 'And another place that reminds me of Shakespeare or Greek tragedy.'

Lilikate: 'Well we know he is a bit slow... just by past decisions.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, my discussion point is this insta death guy thing--get close and you are a goner, sadly.'

Anthemisa: 'But why did he die by stone?'

Hollyberye: 'The dragon moving was shaking the crevice walls. His huge bulk was dislodging rocks.'

Anthemisa: 'Oh my! Poor soul!'

Lilikate: 'I felt it was Greek tragedy/kids book.'

Mornawen: 'Turin keeps thinking he can change his doom by changing his name.'

Byrcha: 'Did you see the second Hobbit movie? there is a similar scene, though only coins are falling below.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes he ran from his curse by so many means, for ages. But now he faces it I feel.'

Mithmenelien: 'The last thing to die in the human is hope it is said, so I think that's why it take him so long to come to that realization.'

Anthemisa: 'Yes! I can imagine, Byrcha!'

Lilikate: 'I felt in this instance he is truly brave.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay great point--yes Hope springs eternal in me, I know that much!'

Lilikate: 'It's a point where you cheer him along.'

Hollyberye: 'And you have to have hope to carry on.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, this is his big chance to get it right it seems.'

Malphos: 'Or give up, and there would be no story about you.'

Hollyberye: 'When I wrote that discussion point, I scribbled something about "is it pure selfishness, natural to a human" but not sure what I meant. I guess was he being selfish to deny that he touches everyone in the worst way?'

Mornawen: 'And it's personal for Turin. The dragon has messed with him, messed up his life.'

Malphos: 'well, what drives Turin forward is his hatred, not the thought about saving the others.'

Byrcha: 'Is he finally seeing it here, it seems?'

Hollyberye: 'Malphos that is an interesting point!'

Mornawen: 'Can't it be both motives?'

Byrcha: 'Previously he didn't seem to really own all the folks dropping along his path.'

Lilikate: 'I thought it was pure vengence.'

Mithmenelien: 'But now he also want to protect Nienor.'

Mornawen: 'But he wants to protect Niniel, and the people. Yes Mith. :)'

Hollyberye: 'I do think he still has motives of protection in addition to revenge.'

Malphos: 'That's not mentioned at least at that moment, even if it crossed his mind before.'

Byrcha: 'Probably in the last chapter, but did he say why he wanted to face the dragon? I thought it was more of wanting to protect everyone and face his doom, not just personal vengance/glory.'

Hollyberye: 'Facing his Doom was the primary thing I got out of it plus protecting Brethiel.'

Byrcha: 'If he doesn't do it, no one else can.'

Hollyberye: 'Precisely.'

Malphos: '"then he collected all his will and his hatred against the dragon and his master, .." (backtranslated)'

Hollyberye: 'Turin summons all his will, hatred of Dragon and Morgoth, and all his strength, and the dragon climbs above him, exposing his hideous underside. Turambar draws the Black Sword of Beleg and stabs upward. Turin removes the sword triumphantly but at that moment, Glaurung opens his eye with such malice, and with the pain caused by the black blood and that look, Turin falls in a swoon.'

Anthemisa: 'Ah!'

Hollyberye: 'I have three questions here'

Byrcha: 'He does say he now is avenged, when he taunts the dragon.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Malphos, it seems in that moment, the hatred is strong.'

Malphos: 'Oh in my book this scene is much longer ^^'

Hollyberye: 'I just write a summary for the book discussion...a synopsis as we go along.'

Lilikate: 'And then he has to go and gloat a bit, and give a little speech.... oh dear!'

Hollyberye: 'I will put all three discussion points in and we can ebb and flow with them.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. So far as epic ‘Smite the Foe’ scenes, how do you rate this in the annals of literature? What about looking at it from the light of Turin killing one of the most evil beings ever seen? Does that make you look upon Turin with more favor?'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is not Turin, despite all his failings, and his human mortality, truly impressive?'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Do you think that Morgoth meant for Glaurung to die, in order to make Hurin and his children suffer more, or do you think he simply meant for the truth to be revealed at some point, but would have regretted the death of his hideous dragon servant?'

Byrcha: 'Could maybe have been described a bit more, but still an epic dragon-slaying.'

Hollyberye: 'I found it eye-popping epic.'

Malphos: 'To start with the second, yes, in my eyes he is truly impressive. Most times not really in a positive way, but impressive. A real hero in the pantheon of heroes.'

Lilikate: 'Well Glaurung was replaced with new dragons with wings... it could be he wanted the dragon to die.'

Hollyberye: 'And I found Turin stunningly impressive, oh why oh why did he give into pride and so on.'

Byrcha: 'Turin is in this one place very heroic -- he comes up with the correct plan, he overcomes the fear/stench, and he delivers the blow.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, truly epic.'

Malphos: '.. and again then, he could not jump his own shadow, and had to do this "little speech" Lili mentioned.'

Mornawen: 'He has a hero's determination, deep reserves of will and focus.'

Byrcha: 'I don't think this was Morgoth's plan at all -- why toss aside one of your greatest weapons.'

Byrcha: 'That makes this the place where Turin triumphs over Morgoth's will.'

Anthemisa: 'To make a bigger weapon, and blind human with glory...'

Malphos: 'I agree, that was a bad side effect from Morgoth's point of view.'

Mornawen: 'I think Morgoth just wanted Glaurung to do as much damage as possible.'

Hollyberye: 'Byrcha, yes, that is why I feel I underestimated the Dragon, thinking Morgoth was most important. But it is Glaurung who is so pivotal.'

Lilikate: 'I was just reading the scene and I feel that if I was nine and this story was being read to me it would be fantastic. Now I have adult maturity it seems lacking. As you say it is in the style of Greek or Norse Myth.'

Byrcha: 'But at the end, the dragon also gets its revenge.'

Mithmenelien: 'It is very telling about his personality the way his pride takes over in the end and brings more doom on him.'

Malphos: 'and what a revenge .. also truly epic'

Hollyberye: 'I suspect Morgoth would hate to lose this mightiest of servants.'

Mornawen: 'I think Morgoth might almost have considered the loss of Glaurung worth it, for the harm he did. Maybe.'

Byrcha: 'In the big-picture, sure -- he sacked Nargothrond, ruined the men of the surrounding land, so big-picture mission accomplished.'

Malphos: 'Both are true I think. and such a "servant" with his own strong will is also dangerous i think. Glaurung was not a simple tool I'd say.'

Byrcha: 'The Turin-thing for Morgoth is a bonus to Morgoth I would think.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, I don't think of Glaurung as a puppet. He does Morgoth's will, but has his own choices.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I just didn't invest enough importance into Glaurung as his own being--much more than spokesman for Morgoth. And I wonder if Morgoth even feared him.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, but still Morgoth's spirit is visibly seen in the dragon's eyes, so he must have some kind of influence over him.'

Anthemisa: 'Turin slayed the dragon by himself right? He is admirable no matter what he did before...and now as a result he is mortal but legendary, I suppose.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Anthy'

Malphos: 'Interesting concept, Holly!'

Lilikate: 'Could Morgoth have warged into the dragon, separated a piece of his soul into the monster?'

Hollyberye: 'Turin was truly impressive'

Anthemisa: 'Then If I were Morgoth... I'd be scared!'

Malphos: 'Think that Morgoth himself was nearly bested by Ungolianth, so he is not invincible!'

Hollyberye: 'Although now Morgoth has lost the way to easily conquor more lands.'

Mornawen: 'Horcrux'

Byrcha: 'We don't really know how the dragons were created.'

Hollyberye: 'No, I wish we did'

Byrcha: 'aye'

Hollyberye: 'Well any other comments on those three points before I move on?'

Mithmenelien: 'I think of Morgoth as being able to move his mind all over Middle-earth at will, and in so controling his minions, I don't know if that is accurate or not though.'

Hollyberye: 'That is my thinking too, Mith.'

Mornawen: 'I thought of it more as a vague "sensing", like Morgoth could feel the emotions of his minions, and vice-versa.'

Byrcha: 'There are only three epic dragon-slayings in Tolkien, so this is pretty impressive stuff.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, what is the other besides Smaug?'

Byrcha: 'I recall Earendil slaying Ancalagon the Black?'

Hollyberye: 'Oh thank you--I simply did not know.'

Malphos: 'Earendil? oh, didn't recall that, thanks. But that was in one of the big battles, or?'

Byrcha: 'I think so, been a while since I read about Earendil.'

Mornawen: 'That was the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, when Beleriand was drowned.'

Byrcha: 'Right, not described in detail like the others.'

Anthemisa: 'Largest of ever.'

Mithmenelien: 'If Turin's sword had the power to kill everything it stabbed, I think that Morgoth and the dragon ought to have been more careful around Turin.'

Mornawen: '*laughs at Mith*'

Byrcha: 'Heh, perhaps they didn't know that curse?'

Malphos: 'Maybe they both fell a bit over their own pride? Not believing in any other fate/curse givers?'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes this book could have been named the doom of pride or somthing.'

Hollyberye: 'Not giving any importance to other cursers--Like Mim's lesser one. Yes!'

Malphos: 'Good point Mith!'

Byrcha: 'I did wonder again when reading this chapter what the overall message is -- like the Greek/Shakespeare tragedy kind of message, and pride seems to be much of it.'

Mornawen: 'Echoes of Oedipus.'

Byrcha: 'indeed'

Malphos: 'That is truly epic tragedy, yes, like the Greek ones. Kill your own father, that one. Oedipus, yes.'

Lilikate: 'Boldness and Pride...Also a lot of leaving people along the way?'

Hollyberye: 'Pride and its downfall.'

Anthemisa: 'Agreed, many references to Oedipus...'

Hollyberye: 'Brandir finds Niniel and says the Black Sword is surely dead. He yearns for her, which tells us much about his real intentions. He leads her away, certain the Dragon will come to destroy Brethil. But Niniel protests, she must go to her husband. As the moon rises and she nears, she has a feeling of remembering and fearing. Clad in white and shining in the moon, Brandir sees her and calls but to no avail. She finds Turin and kisses him, not knowing if he lives.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Last week I asked if Brandir saw her as a daughter or a would-be lover, and I stand corrected, Lhinn and others were right. Although I know the story I am not reading ahead.'

Mornawen: 'I'd forgotten that one.'

Hollyberye: 'So Brandir makes it clearer here that he desires her romantically even if it is more protectively than not.'

Hollyberye: 'Glaurung then stirs for a last time and says “I give you joy that you have found your brother at last. And now you shall know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse upon his kin,

Turin son of Hurin! But the worst of all his deeds you shall feel in yourself.”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Have you ever encountered a villain quite as heinous as Glaurung? While Morgoth is the ultimate evil, we spend a lot more time with Glaurung in this dark fantasy.'

Lilikate: 'Tobacco company bosses?'

Mornawen: 'lol'

Byrcha: 'Yes, to me this is Glaurung's own evil, not words of Morgoth.'

Hollyberye: 'hehe Lili'

Byrcha: 'Though no doubt inspired/encouraged by Morgoth like a student from a teacher.'

Mithmenelien: 'I immediately thought of the death scene in Romeo and Juliet when I read that previous part.'

Hollyberye: 'Again, I have revised my own opinion, and think I should have looked upon Glaurung as the big primary villain of the work. He is much more directly involved.'

Malphos: 'But surpassed his teacher in the complexity and finality of his evil works.'

Mornawen: 'I wondered about Glaurung accusing Turin of being "a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes"-- those don't seem bad things to me.'

Hollyberye: 'I can hardly even imagine the dragon and Morgoth tgether--all the evil minions must have scurried for cover.'

Anthemisa: 'Maybe this evilness is inspiration of the creation of Saruman... at first Saruman seems to have his own will.'

Byrcha: 'The stabber part is from earlier I think -- he killed a friend in the dark.'

Malphos: 'It is not knight's codex to stab in the dark, to be treacherous. You are open even to your opponents. I think that is what it should remind the reader of.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--we went through a list of accusations, Turin being cast in the worst light--earlier.'

Mornawen: 'Ah, all right, thank you.'

Hollyberye: 'When he looked in the Dragon's eyes at Nagothorond. At least if I recall correctly.'

Anthemisa: 'Yes.'
=
Byrcha: 'Yes, this wasn't as elegant (the dragon is dying), but same kind of two-edged intent.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'Nienor sits stunned and as Glaurung finally dies, her memory clears, and she shakes with horror and anguish. Brandir, nearby, is stricken. “Farewell, O twice beloved! Master of doom by doom mastered! O happy to be dead!” She flees, crying she will wait no more upon Middle-earth. And she casts herself into the dark chasm of the roaring river…'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Do you have different emotions surrounding Nienor’s death versus what you would feel about Turin’s or any other desolate soul, for that matter? Is this a classic example of the “broken bird” in literature? Is her suicide ‘justified’?'

Malphos: 'Finishing off the Greek tragedy. All important protagonists dead, leaving only a messenger.'

Byrcha: 'Poor Nienor. The sad thing is, for Nienor, she never even met her brother until recently so how could she have known?'

Lilikate: 'Really who'd care that much?'

Hollyberye: 'She couldn't have known--unless he had gone to retrieve his mother and sister long ago.'

Byrcha: 'Heh, all the messengers seem to die here also.'

Hollyberye: 'Well she is expecting his baby.'

Malphos: 'Yes, poor Nienor. she was subject, not object. she did not act in this story, she was acted upon.'

Byrcha: 'Indeed -- which is why I was shaking my fist at him for waiting 20 years to do so.'

Hollyberye: 'I guess she was raised in such away that this was hideously wrong.'

Mornawen: 'Some cultures don't think incest is always a bad thing.'

Hollyberye: 'Because others could never die and let the child die.'

Byrcha: 'Those taboos are strong in Western culture, though.'

Lilikate: 'Ach this whole plot is just an insight to the time it was written and horrid standards set for women and not men.'

Mornawen: 'Yes.'

Malphos: 'Yes, and you find this topic in many stories. Nearly almost when discovered it ends with immediate suicide of the expecting mother.'

Byrcha: 'Regardless, though showing much courage at times, she is largely a victim here -- another victim in Turin's wake'

Lilikate: 'It could be said that being pregnant could be more argument for her not to kill herself'

Hollyberye: 'I will just say—while Turin faced death innumerable times, and knew long about the curse, and threw himself in death’s path—Nienor, while living in hostile country, lived a different kind of life and deserved a long one, with contentment.'

Mithmenelien: 'And like the dragon said to her, the worst of all Turin's deeds you shall feel inside of yourself.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I really really hated that she felt she had to take her life.'

Mornawen: 'Me, too.'

Lilikate: 'I find myself jutting up again and again at the 2d aspect of the characterization of this tale.'

Lilikate: 'It does frustrate me somewhat.'

Hollyberye: 'What do you mean Lili by the second aspect?'

Lilikate: 'I find myself wishing this tale were longer, it seems we just have the Spark Notes version.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes the fact he never published it--unfinished--uneven.'

Anthemisa: 'I don't recall many suicide scenes at Tolkien's books, I might be ignorant but... this one really breaks my heart.'

Lilikate: 'I'd love more description and more reason and more wonderful description.'

Byrcha: 'But she did get a nice jab in at Brandir.'

Hollyberye: 'It could have been the greatest Dark Fantasy ever written.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, it is a detailed first/second draft, but I suspect could have been filled in much more.'

Lilikate: 'It'd be fun to see how this tale could be written with a modern twist :)'

Byrcha: 'Heh, Jackson would make four movies out of it.'

Mithmenelien: 'She almost seemed too strong to end her life this way, she was just so utterly shocked, but I think it she would have had time to calm herself she might have acted differently.'

Hollyberye: 'Suicide elicits a powerful gut reaction in me--I hate to imagine the suffering in one to go to that length--my heart breaks for her.'

Lilikate: 'Nooooo! Not Jackson!'

Hollyberye: 'and how could she do that with a baby?'

Anthemisa: '*agrees* Holly*'

Hollyberye: 'But I understand why it was written that way.'

Byrcha: 'Not realistic, really -- but she is clearly distraught.'

Malphos: 'it makes the evil done by Glaurung complete'

Byrcha: 'And it fits the tragedy. Basically no one near Turin makes good decisions.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, utter heinous evil.'

Lilikate: 'I think if you attach with it Dickension morals it is clear.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes it "had" to have happened to fit the classic mold.'

Lilikate: 'On it's own, within this world I think maybe they'd have let it slide and been less judgemental.'

Mornawen: 'Someone told me once, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mornawen, and they do not realize how much they will affect those they leave behind.'

Mithmenelien: 'It's very much Juliet and Ophelia like to end her life like this.'

Byrcha: 'Interesting with the cultural/moral theme we mentioned earlier, it is the Dragon that says the incest was Turin's worst deed ... yet neither of them knew what they were doing at the time. Philosophers have debated such for millenia.'

Lilikate: 'Would Melian have advised a suicide?'

Hollyberye: 'No'

Lilikate: 'I doubt it.'

Mithmenelien: 'The child was still innocent'

Byrcha: 'Yes, making it all the more tragic -- the child was totally innocent.'

Lilikate: 'Tolkien was Cathloic - It shows in this scene.'

Hollyberye: 'A side of Tolkien must have known torment to have written this (the trenches???) or to have imagined it. My heart breaks for them.'

Mornawen: 'I don't think this shows his Catholicism much, suicide is a mortal sin.'

Byrcha: 'I think it is more Tolkien following from classical structures. but this isn't how a woman would have written it perhaps?'

Mithmenelien: 'But maybe they believed sadly enough that the sins of it's parents (and the curse) would taint the child.'

Lilikate: 'But she killed herself because she was pregnant with her brothers baby and couldn't handle the what?'

Hollyberye: 'Melian and Thingol would have raised them/cared for them. And Morwen. But then it wouldn't be Darkest Fantasy.'

Mithmenelien: 'if Morwen is still alive'

Byrcha: 'might have been interesting to see how TOlkien would have handled the Grandchild of Hurin'

Mornawen: '*shudders*'

Hollyberye: 'It is almost as if he rewrote Turin as Aragorn, as Aragorn had to overcome Isuldur's poor choice.'

Mithmenelien: 'In historical times it was not uncommon for pregnant women to kill themselves, if they where fallen in bad times, so to speak.'

Hollyberye: 'Thank goodness he took a different approach and gave us Lord of the Rings.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, I see Aragorn as making the right choices along the way, while Turin mostly did not.'

Hollyberye: 'I know, and I know societal thoughts on suicide change over time.'

Byrcha: 'Aragorn did not try to avoid his fate, once on the path.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, exactly--he rose to the occasion, and resisted pride.'

Mornawen: 'Well, Aragorn's nickname was Estel, "Hope". He didn't grow up under a curse.'

Hollyberye: 'No but he still had the failings of his ancestry.'

Mornawen: 'That's true, hmm.'

Hollyberye: 'But I was speaking more generally in that Tolkien took a different bent and chose not to give us such a dark story.'

Hollyberye: 'Brandir leaves the scene and encounters Dorlas. He accuses Dorlas of many things: the begetter of woes, egging on the Black Sword, bringing the Dragon upon us, putting Brandir to scorn, drawing Hunthor to his death, fleeing to skulk, and not bringing tidings, which resultedin Niniel’s death.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Was this a reasonable assessment of Dorlas, or completely skewed by Brandir’s own twisted reality? Or is it twisted? Did Brandir’s accusations cause you to look upon Dorlas differently?'

Mithmenelien: 'Well in a manner of speaking all of it was true, just like all the things the dragon said about Turin were true.'

Byrcha: 'Somewhat valid, but Brandir isn't the most reputable here either.'

Hollyberye: 'I confess I thought of Dorlas as a brave and stalwart fellow, one of the legion who want to be led by Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'The first inkling he was otherwise, was when he was too fearful to go on. So I was upset to read Brandir's accusations. Well, not upset, but I thought they were overblown and surprising.'

Byrcha: 'They were overblown, from Brandir's own grief.'

Malphos: 'Both hurt by the truth in intentionally hurting form.'

Byrcha: 'But the part about Dorlas failing the test of courage rang true.'

Mithmenelien: 'and that was probably what stung the most'

Hollyberye: 'Dorlas aims a blow at Brandir, the latter of whom draws a sword and slays Dorlas instantly. Upon returning to his people, Brandir shares the truth about Turin and Nienor and names the place Grave of the Children of Hurin. He says they must not leave Turin to lie under the sky: “Let us go to him.”'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Comments on the conclusion of this chapter?'

Byrcha: 'Brandir is the messenger mentioned earlier, no?'

Anthemisa: 'Glory and sadness... stunning for me!'

Malphos: 'The poison of the deeds still working.'

Byrcha: 'Interestingly though, he could have not told everyone the truth about Turin/Niniel.'

Mithmenelien: 'It was a bit over the top to name the entire country the Grave of the Children of Hurin.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, he was being a bit melodramatic.'

Byrcha: 'Ironic a bit that, after berating Turin for changing his name, he changes the names of the place.'

Hollyberye: 'Well but it was such a shocking end. Yes, I do not much like Brandir. At first I wondered about him, wanted to know more. I think I mentioned I wanted to know how he got his leadership role. He needed more backstory.'

Byrcha: 'I also found it interesting, after my jokes about the chapter title giving away the ending, Niniel's death was the surprise here.'

Hollyberye: 'BUt the whole attack on Dorlas suprised me'

Lilikate: 'I liked Brandir best I think.'

Hollyberye: 'You did?'

Mornawen: 'Brandir was a hereditary chieftain, I think.'

Lilikate: 'He at least learned some kind of lesson.'

Hollyberye: 'That's true.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think Brandir inherited his leadership.'

Byrcha: 're Dorlas, could that be a bit of justice on what happens to cowards? (from Tolkien's trench experience perhaps)'

Lilikate: 'Just in this after Glaudrung's death chapter'

Hollyberye: 'And he dealt reasonably well with his disability.'

Hollyberye: 'Dorlas was so brave earlier. He took his wounds well.'

Byrcha: 'Murky though, since Dorlas at least made the attempt when no one else did.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes we needed more on Dorlas to agree or disagree with Brandir's scathing indictment, I felt.'

Byrcha: 'And more on Brandir -- he is not cast in a very good light at the end.'

Hollyberye: 'Well, next week will be our last session on this book.'

Malphos: 'No one at the end is clearly depicted as good, brave, coward or such. All is a difficult grey.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes VERY Grey is this book, with some black.'

Mithmenelien: 'Even the paintings are very gray in color.'

Byrcha: 'Kinda the entire First Age was grey!'

The group concluded with a chat about the book club, the end of this book discussion, and what will happen next. Stay tuned for details!


We are having some difficulty scheduling the final session. At least two of our loyal members will not be able to make it on the 18th--so what about Saturday, August 1st, 3:30PM?
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Saturday August 1st should work for me.


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

I think I can make that too :)


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Wow Elimraen! It must have been absolutely amazing being at the real Bird and Baby, I hope you had a marvelous time! =D

I'm really looking forward to seeing you all again for the last Children of Hurin Support group! =D

There is one little thing I have been wondering about while I read the book. It is described very well how the different kinds of humans look like, but not so much with the elves, does anyone maybe know about this from other sources? For example, is there a specific way the different elves of Doriath, Nargothrond, Gondolin and Dor-lomin tends to look like, then it comes to hair colors and the like?

I might be getting ahead of myself, maybe I should wait with the question until the book club? wink


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Isilerin wrote:
Wow Elimraen! It must have been absolutely amazing being at the real Bird and Baby, I hope you had a marvelous time! =D

I'm really looking forward to seeing you all again for the last Children of Hurin Support group! =D

There is one little thing I have been wondering about while I read the book. It is described very well how the different kinds of humans look like, but not so much with the elves, does anyone maybe know about this from other sources? For example, is there a specific way the different elves of Doriath, Nargothrond, Gondolin and Dor-lomin tends to look like, then it comes to hair colors and the like?

I might be getting ahead of myself, maybe I should wait with the question until the book club? wink


I have just added this question to our discussion! Thanks, Mithmenelien.

Reminder to all that our last session is Saturday at 3:30 PM at the Bird & Baby and /lmbbookclub.
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I'll be sad to finish with this... Maybe we can continue with another book at some point?

That's an interesting question about how the various races of elves look. Of course, they're all beautiful, Tolkien never described an ugly elf that I can recall. :)


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Molly Bayberry wrote:
I'll be sad to finish with this... Maybe we can continue with another book at some point?

That's an interesting question about how the various races of elves look. Of course, they're all beautiful, Tolkien never described an ugly elf that I can recall. :)


We will most definitely continue with a new book. I will think about it and will solicit ideas at the end of the meeting, and then probably post a short list here. The one thing we know for certain is that the next book will not be quite as dark wink...
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Hollyberye wrote:
Molly Bayberry wrote:
I'll be sad to finish with this... Maybe we can continue with another book at some point?

That's an interesting question about how the various races of elves look. Of course, they're all beautiful, Tolkien never described an ugly elf that I can recall. :)


We will most definitely continue with a new book. I will think about it and will solicit ideas at the end of the meeting, and then probably post a short list here. The one thing we know for certain is that the next book will not be quite as dark wink...

My vote goes to The Hobbit! It's a bit light hearted and the elves are less depressed! envy


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Oh I'm so glad we're already thinking of the next book! I was going to really miss this group!


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re: Picture of Nienor and Glaurung

I came across this on Deviant Art and it made me think of our discussion of this scene:

Nienor and Glaurung by ekukanova

There are quite a few renderings of scenes from the book: The Children of Húrin

What a talented artist she is. *sighs*


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Wow, her work is beautiful.


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