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Hollyberye
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session IV, 9 May 2015, Chapters VIII and IX


Location: /joinchatchannel lmbbookclub, Bird and Baby Inn Michel Delving

Participants: Hollyberye, Lilikate, Byrcha, Mithmenelien, Lhinna, Danniwynn, Mornawen, Elimraen


Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate. We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to continue discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien, in this, our fourth session. All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions. As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points. However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly. In this session we are covering chapters eight and nine.'

Hollyberye: 'Chapter VIII: The Land of Bow and Helm'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien tells us that Beleg labored much for the good of the outlaws, healing them, and reinforces that Beleg was special even among the Grey-elves: strong, enduring, far-sighted, valiant—which engendered a growth of hatred in Mim’s heart.'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien compares the Grey-elves with the Exiles of Valinor, saying that the Grey-elves were ‘still’ a high people, possessing great power, wise in life and all living things, though less in crafts and lore than the Exiles from Valinor.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does power equate to magic user? Is this the subtle way that Tolkien implies magic in this high fantasy? Can any among you please tell us more about the differences between the Grey-elves and the Exiles from Valinor?'

Byrcha: 'I'm forgetting all the nuances, but the Grey Elves never went to Valinor.'

Hollyberye: 'Did they just stay in Middle Earth?'

Mornawen: 'Yes, the Grey Elves were the ones who stayed with Thingol and Melian.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think they started to go Valinor, but for some reason stayed in Middle Earth instead.'

Byrcha: 'I think so. But they did come west, so they had met/interacted with the Valar.'

Hollyberye: 'We talked before about magic in Tolkien--it is understated but very real, so I wondered if the power expressed here was magic.'

Byrcha: 'But does that imply that 'magic' comes from the Valar, or just their nobility?'

Hollyberye: 'I don't know--but I am VERY intrigued. 'The great power of the Grey-elves.' I confess in Fantasy I like the magic bits the most.'

Mithmenelien: 'me to :)'

Mornawen: 'I ran across a passage that intrigued me, about Beleg speaking with animals. That seems almost magical.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes that does, Mornawen!'

Mithmenelien: 'I liked that part :)'

Hollyberye: 'Well if you have any more thoughts on that, just interject wherever we are.'

Hollyberye: 'Come spring, ‘Morgoth’s might was moved’ and we are told that Morgoth is weighing in his malice all the tidings that come to him, that he has a deep understanding of the deeds and purposes of his enemies, excepting Melian the Queen, who foils him when Morgoth tries to penetrate her thoughts.'

Hollyberye: 'Morgoth seeks to extend his evil reach and orcs spill out of the north to do his bidding. We are told, though, that a hidden terror dwells in the wild that keeps the orcs at bay, plus up on the bald red hill are watchful eyes ‘of which they had not been warned.’'

Hollyberye: 'We are also told that Turin dons the Helm of Hador again and that between Turin and Beleg, their company seems like a host of force against the enemy.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is the hidden terror and the watchful eyes Turin and Beleg or something else? It seems a bit cryptic.'

Byrcha: 'Also Nargothrond, since Morgoth doesn't know where it is. Or Gondolin also perhaps?'

Hollyberye: 'Now, I had not thought of that, but that is an excellent possibility of what Morgoth meant.'

Byrcha: 'THough the red hill likely means the outlaws.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin and Beleg together certianly seem to be more than just two--the synergy of them makes them seem more of a force--I think that may be partly what Tolkien is conveying.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, that is also what Mim reacts to.'

Hollyberye: 'Something to be reckoned with that is greater than two individuals working together, and that fuels Mim's jealousy, too, I guess.'

Lhinna: 'Yes, that is what it seemed like the passage was saying.'

Hollyberye: 'Androg defies the curse of Mim and takes up a bow—but although he should have died from the poisoned arrow, Beleg is capable of healing Androg so Mim’s hatred grows fiercer for having his curse undone, but ‘it will bite again.’'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What a nasty Petty Dwarf this Mim is…do you feel he is the prototype for any other character we see later on in Tolkien’s body of work? I ask this because we have previously identified characters in this early book that seem to have been rendered differently and more fully later on. Note: his type of dwarf is literally Petty Dwarf, says Tolkien, rare.'

Lhinna: 'I was surprised that Mim was so offended by Turin and Beleg's friendship. Turin and Mim must have grown very close in the time they spent together? It seemed odd to me. Which doens't answer the question at all, just somethign I pondered.'

Hollyberye: 'Well, Mim was initially getting close to Turin when the outlaws moved in. But he takes jealousy to extremes.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Mim even let Turin into his forge.'

Lhinna: 'Yes'

Hollyberye: 'I said in our first session that I personally feel jealousy is the worst of all bad traits--because it can erode a person away--and Mim is an excellent example.'

Byrcha: 'To me Mim seems something of an echo of the dwarf that I recall from the German/Norse 'Ring' cycle, at least with this curse/fate/hidden-sorcery line.'

Mornawen: 'Turin seems to inspire such love in people.'

Lhinna: 'Indeed, Mornawen! People seem to be drawn to him!'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'Byrcha I did read that the Ring Cycle was one of the tale's influences.'

Lhinna: 'But for Androg, of course.'

Hollyberye: 'Agreed Mornawen, Turin must have been even more charismatic than I feel he is portrayed.'

Hollyberye: 'Many free folk are now rallying around the “two Captains,” Turin and Beleg, even though the refuge at Amon Rudh is kept secret (now dubbed Camp of the Faithful). The followers of Turin swell and throw back Angband.'

Hollyberye: 'Then we are told that Morgoth tries a new strategy to make the rebels become over-confidant. It works, and Turin proclaims himself lordship of some of the lands and names himself the Dread Helm. But Beleg is troubled. He speaks of winter coming, and the need for food.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turin asks, ‘what else would you have me do?’ and Beleg responds ‘You know full well…but of that road you have forbidden me to speak.’ Does he mean go back to Thingol and Melian?? Does he mean fight Morgoth in a different manner?'

Mornawen: 'Does Beleg mean Dimbar?'

Lhinna: 'I believe Beleg means going back to Thingol and Melian. I think that is what he wished for the most, even if he does not say it.'

Mornawen: 'Ah.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, I agree.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think he mean to go back to Thingol and Melian, since that was the only counsel that Beleg was not alowed to give Turin.'

Byrcha: 'I took it as return to Doriath. But I keep wondering why Turin didn't think of going back to Dor Lomin.'

Elimraen: 'But I'm not sure how he thinks they will fight?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, they can't just sit around while Morgoth's evil spreads.'

Hollyberye: 'Morgoth laughs when Turin is revealed to him ‘who had long been lost in the shadows and under the veils of Melian.’ Morgoth fears that Turin will grow in power to the extent that he can cast off the curse or that he will retreat to Doriath and be lost to his sight. So now Morgoth wishes to seize Turin and afflict him as he has Hurin. Morgoth sends out skilled spies to lurk around.'

Mornawen: 'It would probably be easier to join Thingol's forces... their life seems kind of scrappy out there.'

Hollyberye: 'Mim is aware of the orcs, and under pretense of foraging for roots with his son, determines to seek out the servants of Morgoth and lead them to Turin’s hiding place.'

Elimraen: 'Booooo!' Hollyberye nods in agreement with Elimraen.

Hollyberye: 'Q. Christopher Tolkien adds a footnote to the effect that Mim was possibly not so motivated but that the capture of his son by the orcs drove him to betray Turin and his company. What do you know about this alternative theory? Related to that, how could a jealousy be so potent that Mim would surely be risking his own life and his precious Amon Rudh?'

Lhinna: 'Agreed, Mornawen! And risking his last son's life as well!'

Byrcha: 'Yeah, a curious move. Corroded by his jealousy.'

Mithmenelien: 'I liked the second version the best, it fits more with how I see Mim, but I do like very much that both versions are in the book, it reminds me of mythology, the same myth can be told in a different way, depending where it came from, the way of the word of mouth.'

Hollyberye: 'Another question I just thought of--or discussion point--interesting how Morgoth thought Turin could become so powerful he could throw the curse off! Has anyone in Tolkien done that?'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe if Tolkien had been able to finish the book the finished version would have landed somewhere between the two.'

Elimraen: 'It is a very extreme reaction to jealousy if that's what it is. A threat to a loved one is more believable I suppose.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Holly, I wondered that too!'

Hollyberye: 'I agree that it is like mythology to hear different versions. But Mim's jealousy is all consuming!'

Lilikate: 'I think it reads very much like a Norse myth but I find I question it's plausability so much.'

Lhinna: 'I tend to think it is the second version because of his son's involvement, but his jealousy was consuming, so it very possibly could have motivated him while clouding his vision!'

Mornawen: 'Well, this tale is probably handed down from Elven sources... the dwarves aren't pictured at their best.'

Elimraen: 'I thought Morgoth's fear was that Turin would throw the curse off by making his own life worse than Morgoth himself could make it? Which would work in M's favour too!'

Hollyberye: 'Oh both of those are great points!'

Lilikate: 'I find there a similar tones with Isildur when he has the one ring.'

Elimraen: 'Oh, interesting Mornawen!'

Hollyberye: 'First, Mornawen, you are right I got completely persuaded that Mim the Petty Dwarf was the lowest of the low.'

Hollyberye: 'And Elimraen, I hadn't thought of it that way, that he could make his own life worse than what Morgoth could inflict. I was thinking more he would such a powerful man, Turin, that it would roll off his back.'

Hollyberye: 'Lili you are right, different versions of Isuldur and how he handled things. I was also intrigued by that passage that Melian could veil and protect Turin when he lived with her.'

Mithmenelien: 'I thought that it meant that there is hope for Turin after all, that the human psyche can be stronger than the negativity caused by Morgoth.'

Hollyberye: 'I think that is a third and very valid point.'

Hollyberye: 'I can see someone with the strength of Aragorn rejecting it. He found the strength to reject the ring.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes indeed!'

Hollyberye: 'Where Isuldar was weak, Aragorn was strong.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, it is much like the theme of rejecting or embracing the Ring.'

Byrcha: 'Similarly, Mim is corrupted by the curse.'

Elimraen: 'Well. Aren't I a negative nelly. I prefer the hopeful version!'

Mornawen: '*laughs*'

Lilikate: 'I thought Mim was corrupted by the Orcs holding his son captive?'

Hollyberye: 'This book is written in such a way that I take the most negative views.'

Byrcha: 'This isn't exactly a hopeful story.'

Lilikate: 'As well as being a jealous ninny.'

Hollyberye: 'well it depends on which version you believe, Lili.'

Elimraen: 'I'm getting that impression sad'

Hollyberye: 'To me he was already hopelessly corrupt.'

Mithmenelien: 'About Turins Charisma and how people are drawn to him that was mentioned before, I get a feeling that much of it is in his eyes, his gaze was described to be so very powerful.'

Lilikate: 'I thought it was supposed to be a Tragedy.'

Hollyberye: 'The fact that he would risk his beloved home as well as his last son...haha it sure is, Lili!!! Great point, Mithmenelien--his eyes.'

Lilikate: 'He didn't have to be jealous of Beleg or make the man break his bow.'

Lhinna: 'I felt Mim may not have been the way he is if his son had not been shot for no reason while they were travelling home.'

Lilikate: 'Makes no sense to have your best shot bowless.'

Lhinna: 'At least not "as" bad.'

Hollyberye: 'Again we have characters chosing the worst course of action. Mim is as bad as Turin for that!'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Mim has little left except his pride.'

Lilikate: 'Turin should have stepped up then, too.'

Lhinna: 'But, Mim and his sons were just living life, when Turin and his band came across them and slayed his son and took over his home..'

Byrcha: 'Aye, seems like the curse intruded on Mim.'

Hollyberye: 'That's a fair point to make, Lhinn.'

Lilikate: 'So is that curse or just being a robbing idiot?'

Lilikate: 'And how uncomfortable is it to have our "lead" man, so unlikeable?'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that is part of why Mim liked Turin, that he at least offered to one day pay retubution for his son being slain, and gold is important to dwarwes.'

Elimraen: '*Whispers* I still like him!'

Hollyberye: 'It is certainly easier to love LOTR so much more with so many attractive, loveable heros and heroines.'

Lhinna: 'Turin only seems to step up to do the "right" thing when he is absolutely forced (stopping the outlaws form slaying Mim as well, etc.) So yes, he is unlikeable in many ways to me.'

Hollyberye: 'Do you, Elimraen? I am keenly interested in him--and sympathetic.'

Lilikate: 'I really can't like him much at all.'

Hollyberye: 'I have tried to think of him as a real person and can see that he would be awe-inspiring.'

Elimraen: 'I feel sorry for him. He still loves certain people deeply and that's..attractive?'

Lilikate: 'Maybe he is just Bipolar?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes it IS attractive--'

Elimraen: 'Oh yes, there are plenty of fictional characters who I adore who I don't think I would like in RL!'

Hollyberye: 'He certainly has warring emotions and motivations! Notice how he completely switches thoughts and statements mid-sentence at times. He is so at conflict within himself. And he HAS been dealt such hard blows PLUS has his heritage to live up to.'

Mornawen: 'I'd like him more if he had a sense of humour.'

Lilikate: 'He seems to bounce from one extreme to another without any reason.'

Lhinna: 'I liked him alright until he couldn't recall Nellas at all! How??'

Lilikate: 'How is that possible?'

Mornawen: 'Oh, yes, that, Lhinn!'

Lhinna: 'Indeed'

Hollyberye: 'Mim lays out the conditions that he will be given the weight in iron of each man captured, in gold for Beleg and Turin, and that his home and himself be unmolested and that Beleg be left behind for Mim to “deal with” and that Turin be let go free.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How can we explain that he insists on payment for Beleg and Turin yet they won’t be the prisoners of the orcs? How could Mim possibly believe in the integrity of the Orcs to meet the conditions?'

Lilikate: 'But surely he knows a deal with Orcs is worth nothing?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--surely!!!'

Mornawen: 'Yes, the idea of a deal is ridiculous.'

Byrcha: 'AYe, how could a dwarf believe the word of an orc?'

Lhinna: 'Right, I find it hard to believe that Mim thinks they woud actually uphold a deal.'

Hollyberye: 'Is he just so blinded by jealousy? and the need for revenge, that he is THAT reckless?'

Lilikate: 'Or to go into such an agreement thinking the Orcs would hold true?'

Mornawen: 'Is it just a salve to his own pride, to make demands and have them agreed to, at that moment of betrayal?'

Hollyberye: 'I guess so, Mornawen.'

Mithmenelien: 'I wonder how much people knew of the nature of orcs in those day, they must at least have heard rumors about them?'

Hollyberye: 'They were hated and loathed! I do think everyone knew they were sent forth from Mordoth.'

Byrcha: 'Servants of Morgoth, they would never be trusted.'

Hollyberye: 'Exactly.'

Mithmenelien: 'I see thanks :)'

Byrcha: '...except by someone who's heart was also dark?'

Mithmenelien: 'oh, good point!'

Hollyberye: 'Well we don't know how isolated Mim was--but I think he knew Orcs were utterly untrustworthy.'

Hollyberye: 'Mim’s son is the hostage and ‘thus was the House of Ransom betrayed.’'

Hollyberye: 'The author describes how Mim is able to lead the orcs to Amon Rudh. When the men are forced inside, Androg reveals the hidden stair leading to the top, and the outlaws encounter the orcs who have made it to the summit from outside.'

Hollyberye: 'Androg is mortally wounded and the others are slain, until finally a net is cast over Beleg and Turin. Turin is carried off and Beleg, also wounded, is bound on the ground. The orcs proceed to defile and ravage the interior, and Mim appears on the summit, gloating over Beleg with a sharpened knife.'

Hollyberye: 'Androg crawls across the dead bodies and seizes a sword, thrusting it at the dwarf. Mim shrieks in fear, runs to the brink of the cliff and disappears down a goat path. Androg cuts the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, then dies.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is it plausible that Mim would be so frightened of a dying Androg as to run in fear, after dealing with Orcs and sending so many to their death? Who among you rather wished Androg had successfully slain Mim at that moment?'

Lhinna: 'I was surprised Androg used his last moments to free Beleg, who he did not seem to like very much.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Lhinn, agreed.'

Elimraen: 'That was an amazing moment Lhinn :)'

Lhinna: 'It was! It redeemed him, the tiniest bit, in my eyes.'

Byrcha: 'Aye'

Hollyberye: 'The image of Mim gloating over Beleg really sickened me.'

Elimraen: 'Yes it's time for Mim to go bye bye.'

Hollyberye: 'I guess it sickened Androg, too. I confess I wish he had killed Mim then. What Mim did was atrocious. Not that I am in to violence, but it is a very violent book.'

Lhinna: 'Yes, and at that point, it didn't matter, I once felt pity for Mim, he had gone too far!'

Byrcha: 'Many deserve death ... can you give it to them? wink'

Hollyberye: 'It it weren't Tolkien I wouldn't be reading it.'

Mornawen: 'Hehe, Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'Byrcha, my answer to that is no--that's why I was so surprised that at that moment I wished oh be done with him (Mim).'

Elimraen: 'My inner lotro character ./roar-ed at Mim at that point!'

Mithmenelien: 'Beleg had previously saved Androgs life at that time them Mim's curse should have killed him, so as bad as Androg was, maybe he still had some kind of thieves honor?'

Hollyberye: 'I had forgotten that--great point.'

Lhinna: 'Yes, that makes perfect sense!'

Byrcha: 'Indeed.'

Hollyberye: 'This was a time when people owed each other. And it is common in fantasy.'

Lhinna: 'Plus, I think he despised Mim more than he disliked Beleg.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments on this chapter?'

Mornawen: 'Turin stayed with his band partly to lift them up a bit, morally, I think.'

Mornawen: 'Even Androg had some good inside him.'

Elimraen: 'Yes :)'

Lilikate: 'Got most if not all of them killed, too.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--Turin wouldn't tolerate certain behaviors.'

Mithmenelien: 'I remember Androg saying that there is blood on the Hill top as they first came there and sadly now there really is.'

Hollyberye: 'Another prophetic statement...it never felt like a good place to be for Androg.'

Mornawen: 'Ooh, yes.'

Byrcha: 'Ah, foreshadowing.'

Hollyberye: 'Alas: Chapter IX: the Death of Beleg'

Lhinna: ':'('

Hollyberye: 'Beleg sought among the dead on the summit for Turin, but cannot find him and assumes Turin is being taken to Angband. Beleg stays behind until

his wounds heal, then sets out on a long and seemingly hopeless journey to track Turin and his captors.'

Hollyberye: 'Beleg ventures through an evil land of dread and dark enchantment, where he finds a sleeping elf, whom he wakens and feeds lembas. This elf is Gwindor, who was captured during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and forced to work in the mines of the North.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. A glimmer of light in all this gloom—the Feanorian lamps are described as crystals hung in a fine chain net, ever shining and with an inner blue radiance. Do we see these illuminators in the Lord of the Rings? How could the Noldor possess these lamps and not have them confiscated when they were enslaved?'

Mornawen: 'Morgoth likes making them work for him?'

Hollyberye: 'I was enchanted by the lights' description.'

Mornawen: 'Elven magic. ;)'

Hollyberye: 'I thought of the lights in Mirkwood when Bilbo and the dwarves were lost plus the ones we dance to at the Lothlorien vineyards. But I didn't see how they could secrete the lights in captivity.'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe they work better in the mines with the lamps, makes them better slaves for Morgoth.'

Mornawen: 'It seems like that is one of the skills that the Noldor learned in Valinor, how to imprison light in a synthetic gem.'

Elimraen: 'I think that's what I assumed Mith.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, that's the only logical explanation -- a bit progressive for orc overseers.'

Hollyberye: 'Well I just wanted to highlight something pleasant like the lembas in the last session :)'

Elimraen: 'It was a very nice description!'

Lhinna: 'They do sound lovely! And, I agree with Mithmenelien - it seems they were allowed to keep them for what use do orcs have of such things?'

Mithmenelien: 'It was a beautiful description, I wish I had some of those lights in real life!'

Hollyberye: 'Maybe orcs can't see them.'

Hollyberye: 'We learn that Gwindor was able to get a knife and escape, but at the loss of a hand. Beleg learns an advance guard of orcs is ahead but without Turin…and that he, Beleg, needs to backtrack and go a separate way. But suddenly they hear a great host.'

Hollyberye: 'Gwindor and Beleg hide in the boughs of a tree and see the servants of Morgoth pass, slowly, laden with booty and captives, surrounded by wolves and Turin is among them chained and driven by whips.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What terrible imagery Tolkien is able to summon! Any comments on this meeting of Gwindor and Beleg and what they see? Do you suppose the booty is from Mim’s home or other victims along the way?'

Mithmenelien: 'Probably both.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, sounds like just another day of Orc-mischief sad'

Hollyberye: 'I could really visualize the hurried march.'

Hollyberye: 'Gwindor tries to dissuade Beleg from following Turin. But Beleg cannot abandon Turin and is able to transfer some hope into Gwindor, even though he himself is in despair.'

Hollyberye: 'Eventually Beleg takes the opportunity of the drunken, sleeping orc camp to silently shoot four of the wolf-sentinels and creep in at great peril. They find Turin fettered to a tree and in a stupor. They are able to bear him out, amid a fierce thunderstorm.'

Hollyberye: 'Now the sword that Beleg was warned against comes into play. Anglachel slips and pricks Turin’s foot. Turin wakes in a ferocious rage, believing he is being tortured by orcs and seizes the sword and slays Beleg!'

Byrcha: 'Boo, they cut the bonds with something else in the camp, but turned to the cursed-sword once they were outside.'

Hollyberye: 'Wow--yes.'

Byrcha: 'Don't use cursed sword, don't use the cursed sword!'

Hollyberye: 'In a green flash of lightening Turin sees it is Beleg…he stands stone-still and silent and looks so terrible that Gwindor cowers.'

Mithmenelien: 'And Melinans words about the sword comes true'

Elimraen: 'I was listening to this on a walk and stopped in my tracks when this happened sad'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!'

Hollyberye: 'The orcs wake but are so frightened by the thunder from the West, which they believe was sent by their enemies, that they do not go after the missing Turin. A hot, bright morning sun causes the orcs to flee, to return empty-handed to Morgoth, while Turin remains crazed and unwitting ‘bearing a burden heavier than their bonds.’'

Hollyberye: 'Gwindor is able to rouse Turin enough to bury Beleg, but withholds the sword and the lembas. Turin’s grief is graven on his face and never fades.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Comments on the death of Beleg, the prophesy of the sword Anglachel and anything else in this scene.'

Mornawen: 'That was a good point, Byrcha, about them using a dagger or something in the camp.'

Mithmenelien: 'It was a very depressing chapter, I really need the support group after reading it!'

Mornawen: 'Could the fetters that bound his arms and legs have been tougher than what bound him to the tree?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I hated losing Beleg. He was a shining light to guide Turin to a better path, I felt.'

Hollyberye: 'It’s a side issue but I was impressed with Gwindor’s being practical in not burying the sword and lembas…plus Gwindor rises to the occasion, assumes a mantle of responsibility out of necessity—he was entirely different not long before.'

Elimraen: 'Gwindor seems to be under the 'Turin's eyes influence' on p155 when he covers in front of his 'terrible face'.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes he does--Turin and his profoundly powerful eyes.'

Mithmenelien: 'Turin’s grief is graven on his face and never fades.' That was such a powerful line!'

Elimraen: 'But yes, Beleg was my favourite sad sad I would like to get hold of the chapter artwork somehow.'

Lilikate: 'I was sad to lose Beleg and in this manner.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, how very very terrible.'

Hollyberye: 'I was also intrigued by the darkly enchanted region they traveled through in the search for Turin.'

Byrcha: 'This seems even more of a turning point, than the previous chapter, though Mim/Morgoth set it in motion.'

Mornawen: 'It seems like love is a powerful force, too, like pride and jealousy.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, it keeps seeming like it will *almost* save Turin, and then it doesn't.'

Lhinna: 'With Beleg's death, I fear he may have little hope of being saved sad'

Lhinna: 'Or, care to save himself.'

Mornawen: 'Beleg loves Turin like a son, I think, and even went against his own judgment for him... Yes, Lhinn.'

Mithmenelien: 'It was all so very sad! I had tears in my eyes after I finished that chapter ;('

Elimraen: 'I agree. There's still Morwen and his sister but Beleg was a 'closer' good influence.'

Lhinna: 'Oh, yes! That is true! Perhaps it could be just the opposite and his death opens his eyes somewhat.'

Elimraen: 'Let us first-time readers hope! Although 'tragedy' has been mentioned once or twice :/'

Lhinna: 'Yes, everyone says what a tragic tale it is, so my hope remains, but dimly!'

Hollyberye: 'Gwindor is an elf of Nagothrond and is finding his courage and strength and takes charge of Turin on a great journey, until they reach Ivrin’s lake, which is beautifully described.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin drinks of the water and it unlooses his tears and he is healed of his madness.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin composes a song for Beleg, the Song of the Great Bow, Laer Cu Beleg, and received the sword of Anglachel from Gwindor.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Gwindor says the strange blade mourns for Beleg like Turin. I have difficulty reconciling this with Melian’s words, as she proclaimed ‘it will not love the hand that it serves.’ Surely the sword would have needed to love Beleg to mourn for him…what are your thoughts on this?'

Mithmenelien: 'One thing I thought about, that the sword mourned for Beleg, so it could not have been completely corrupted by it's maker, and fascinating enough the sword seems almost sentient or at least like it has feelings.'

Hollyberye: 'Well said, Mith.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, it is an interesting image (like the sorcery and shapeshifting in the story of Beleg/Luthien).'

Lhinna: 'Was the sword serving Beleg or Turin?'

Lhinna: 'It was held by Beleg, but Beleg took it in his search for Turin.'

Mornawen: 'Maybe the sword didn't love Beleg, but it felt the injustice of his death.'

Byrcha: 'Well, it is Gwindor's opinion that the sword mourns ... maybe it didn't really do so?'

Hollyberye: 'It was great imagery--I was just surprised, after what Melian had said.'

Mornawen: 'Gwindor is projecting? ;)'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe it is the dual point of the true nature of the sword and the influence that comes from the one that made it.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Eol.'

Hollyberye: 'It must be something very complex like that'

Byrcha: 'Perhaps the sword is conflicted (like most everyone in this story!).'

Hollyberye: 'hahah yes'

Lilikate: 'I know I am conflicted about this tale.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. I could not find the actual “Song of the Bow”—do you know if Tolkien actually wrote it?

Byrcha: 'I didn't look for it. Perhaps it is in Lost Tales or other archival material.'

Hollyberye: 'I searched online. I could only find ABOUT IT not IT. But some of the online descriptions of Beleg made him sound more remarkable than I felt Tolkien did. It would make a wonderful song. Oh, now there's an idea!'

Mornawen: 'Yes.'

Elimraen: 'Do it, Holly!'

Hollyberye: 'If I hear some song that seems likely I will!'

Elimraen: ':D'

Hollyberye: 'Turin has come to his senses and asks Gwindor who he is. Turin asks if he has seen Hurin when enslaved in Andband. Turin is explicitly told that the rumor is that Hurin ‘still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin.’'

Hollyberye: 'Q. In a rather understated fashion, Turin said, ‘That I do believe.’ Is this probably the first time Turin has learned there is a curse? Any comments on how this will affect him, given that he already acted like he was driven by fate to do certain things/make certain choices.'

Mornawen: 'So this is when Turin finds out about the curse?'

Hollyberye: 'I believe so, Mornawen.'

Byrcha: 'And essentially says 'Yeah, that about sums it up''

Hollyberye: 'Maybe he would have had a more violent reaction and profound anger/curiosity if he had heard it BEFORE he accidentally killed his beloved friend.'

Elimraen: 'That's true Holly. He sounds resigned to it.'

Hollyberye: 'He's been through so much he just rolls over and accepts it, it seems. Like a diagnosis confimed.'

Mornawen: 'Well, what could he do about it? It seems he's already a bit of a fatalist, yes Holly.'

Mithmenelien: 'It sound like he this is something that to him explains all the bad things taht has happend to him.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, fatalist, good description, which is scary--he was already making bad choices.'

Byrcha: 'indeed'

Elimraen: 'And he didn't have anything specific to blame before, and now he does.'

Hollyberye: 'Now the choices could be even worse as he takes less responsibility for his actions and lets the curse rule him--just speculating. I mean although I know the overall story of Turin, I don't know all the details, as I am reading this as we go along with the discussions.''

Byrcha: 'Or now he is reacting to it, trying to thwart it, but maybe only making things worse.'

Mornawen: 'He was making choices that seemed good to him in the moment, but they turn out ill.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. The two journey southward and are taken as prisoners by Elf scouts to the hidden stronghold of Nargothrond. Does this remind you of anything in particular?'

Elimraen: 'Lothlorien!'

Hollyberye: 'hehe YES'

Mornawen: 'Huor and Hurin being taken to Gondolin.'

Byrcha: 'Or Doriath also, no?'

Hollyberye: 'I was thinking of the fellowship entering Lothlorien.'

Mornawen: 'And Lothlorien, too'

Hollyberye: 'Yes other examples!'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien’s reuse is entertaining to me.'

Byrcha: 'Hehe, so LOTR is a rerun :P'

Elimraen: '*Sigh*, those Elves'

Hollyberye: 'I like to think of Lotr as a much better refinement--from a greatly matured already skilled writer.'

Mithmenelien: 'It seams to be a common behaviour for elves around their homes.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, veiled in secrecy and well protected and if they find you penetrating the area you are prisoners.'

Byrcha: 'Agreed, Holly. This is much like a first draft, not just of details but of concepts.'

Hollyberye: 'Think too of the dwarves in the Hobbit. Thingol took them captive when they were out in the nearby forest.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, and of prototypes.'

Byrcha: 'Actually, it would've been true of any realm without open borders to detain any 'visitors''

Hollyberye: 'true'

Mornawen: 'Going back a bit, I wonder if finding out that his father was still alive, was more upsetting to Turin than the curse.' [NOTE from Holly: We should discuss this point next session.]

Elimraen: 'Ooh, yes'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments on the two chapters discussed today?'

Mithmenelien: 'I like how people write songs then they are sad in this tale, like Turin did now, and like Hurin tried to do when Lalaith died. I would have liked to hear or read the song that Turin wrote :)'

Byrcha: 'yikes, clearly they needed more happy-songs'

Lilikate: 'I think it reads better than the retelling, although if not Tolkien I doubt I would be reading this book.'

Hollyberye: 'Me too--so I did about my lost Hobbit friend who saved me :)'

Hollyberye: 'Lili, what reads better than the retelling?'

Lilikate: 'These two chapters'

Hollyberye: 'yes'

Elimraen: 'I thought it was interesting that it took a lot of crying (and crying and crying) to free Turin of his madness caused by the grief over Beleg. It rings true I think.'

Hollyberye: 'I could really visualize them.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Elimraen, sometimes grief is too strong for tears.'

Byrcha: 'A curious pattern ...'

Hollyberye: 'Also I liked that my neighborhood in Fallothorn has Ivrin in some of the names--I think--and that is the beautiful area they travel to here.'

Lilikate: 'I find that when reading or listening I am carried on the wave of the story but when I think about the plot. I really don't like the tale. It's strange... I honestly like and dislike it at the same time.'

Byrcha: '... folks who are lost, like the outlaws or Gwindor, are initially redeemed/renewed by Turin's presence ... only later to fall'

Byrcha: 'Beleg is an exception'

Hollyberye: 'I don't care for Christopher Lee's rendering of the female voices--but otherwise he is grand--but I am reading the chapters, then listening but go back to the chapters in the paperback to work on discussion points.'

Lilikate: 'He is much better than the guy reading GOT. 'Danarys T is Irish!!'

Hollyberye: 'I disliked Game of Thrones narration [first book].'

Hollyberye: 'I also was moved by Turin washing his face and then crying.'

Hollyberye: 'Byrcha I like that point--initially renewed by Turin's presence, then it sickens in some way.'

Mithmenelien: 'It's so symbolic that the healing tears takes place by water, water as cleaning both body and soul :)'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I loved that symbolism. This book would make a grand--but terrible--movie.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, water is the element that Morgoth can't pervert.'

Lhinna: 'I am not sure I would want to watch this as a movie!'

Mithmenelien: 'Oh, I didn't know that!'

Lilikate: 'I think I shall take away something very special about this book...'

Hollyberye: 'I didn't know water was the one thing Morgoth could not contaminate--and Elven refuges.'

Byrcha: 'Well, we still watch versions of Greek/classical tragedies ... but it would be grim/heavy.'

Byrcha: 'Water is Ulmo, no?'

Hollyberye: 'What is that, Lilikate?'

Lilikate: 'That sometimes we can't understand everything or ever will!'

Elimraen: 'Yes it was Ulmo. And is Nenya the ring of water?'

Lhinna: 'hehe, so true!'

Hollyberye: 'How true that is!'

Mornawen: 'No, I'm wrong, he can make ice and such, and pollute it, but yes, he couldn't venture on Ulmo's realm.'

Lilikate: 'I will be happy to read on, I hope I don't burst anything when we have more strange actions to fathom.'

Mornawen: 'And Ulmo's power runs in the rivers, especially Sirion.'

Mithmenelien: 'Oh, yes, this lake was guarded from defilement by Ulmo!'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments from this wonderfully thoughtful group?'

Lilikate: 'Yep, when is the next meeting?'

Hollyberye: 'Oh who is Ulmo exactly?'

Hollyberye: 'Our next session will probably be on Saturday, May 23rd at 4PM server time. Thank you so much!'

Lhinna: 'I wanted to keep reading! XD'

Lilikate: 'Isn't he the Valar of the Sea? A Neptune?'

Mornawen: 'Ulmo is the Vala of the deep ocean. Yes, like Neptune.'

The group thanked each other and parted most amicably.

Next session: Saturday, 23 May 4PM Server Time: Chapters X and XI of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien...newcomers welcome!
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Thank you for posting this, Holly! We were missing some regular folks, Rozalinde and Malphos, I hope they are all right, and that the story isn't growing too dark for them...


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club: The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session 5, 23 May 2015...Chapters X and XI


Attendees: Elimraen, Lilikate, Lhinnthel, Byrcha, Hollyberye, Mornawen--Thank you to our wonderful, thoughtful participants!

Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate. We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to continue discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien, in this, our fifth session. We picked this venue because members of Tolkien's Inkling Club regularly gather here, and they would appreciate hearing of their old friend. All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions. Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub . As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points. However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly. In this session we are covering chapters ten and eleven.'

Chapter X: Turin in Nargothrond

Hollyberye: 'Gwindor is barely recognized as the young and strong elf they knew. He has aged and been maimed almost as if he were a mortal man grown old. But his betrothed, the daughter of King Orodreth, Finduilas, recognizes him and for Gwindor's sake, Turin is admitted into this secret Elven enclave.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Are you surprised to learn Gwindor was an Elf of such importance to have been the betrothed of the King's daughter? Any comments on how Gwindor had loved her beauty so that he named her Faelivrin, 'the sheen of the sun upon the pools of Ivrin.''

Hollyberye: 'I will say I was surprised but then of course they did send him out and he was captured. I just didn't get the sense he was important before.'

Elimraen: 'I only remembered that he had watched his brother die in the battle at the start.'

Elimraen: 'No, I didn't either particularly.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh yes, I forgot that.'

Hollyberye: 'I simply adore the expression: "the sheen of the sun upon the pools of Ivrin." What a stunning way to describe one's beloved.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, that was very beautiful!'

Hollyberye: 'Turin calls himself Agarwaen, the son of Umarth, which means Blood-stained, son of ill-fate. The sword Anglachel is forged anew, infused with Elven magic in the form of a pale fire sheen, which implies something more powerful than it was before.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why is the sword forged anew? And ever one for multiple names, Tolkien tells us Turin now calls the sword Gurthang, Iron of Death. Do you feel multiple naming of people, places and things in Tolkien's world enhances our understanding in subtle ways, or does it add clutter and confusion?'

Byrcha: 'enhanced confusion'

Hollyberye: 'enhanced confusion, Byrcha is a perfect way to express that!'

Elimraen: 'Hehe!'

Lilikate: 'I wondered if it was to rid it of some evil...'

Hollyberye: 'that could be, Lili'

Hollyberye: 'I was a bit surprised at the reforging, it wasn't damaged.'

Elimraen: 'It helps us to see what the characters are thinking, their state of mind and intentions/hopes for the items or people.'

Hollyberye: 'But it was mourning, we were told in the last chapter.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, I had to go back and make sure I hadn't missed it being damaged.'

Hollyberye: 'I think they wanted to add magic to it to enhance the might perhaps?'

Lilikate: 'Tbh I have no clue, I found it all rather baffling and hard to follow.'

Lilikate: 'So I just hung on for the ride!'

Elimraen: 'I never even questioned why they were reforging it.'

Hollyberye: 'I had some thoughts on the multiple namings....'

Hollyberye: 'Other authors have copied this and sometimes it is clutter and confusion, but Tolkien is a master. In this book, though, it isn't used quite as effectively as in LOTR.'

Lhinnthel: 'I do enjoy the mutliple names, as they seem to give us glimpses into the character of objects, places, beings, but it is all rather confusing.'

Hollyberye: 'I have always loved Aragorn's multiple names.'

Hollyberye: 'But it takes time to learn them all and sometimes the book drags for me when that is the focus--this book. I know I used to be a huge fan of Russian literature, but my mother tried some of mine and gave up as she said the multiple names were too confusing.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is admitted into the council of King Orodreth and in the debate over military strategy, Turin opposes their way of ambush and stealth, opting for open warfare, while Gwindor takes an opposing stance to Turin. Gwindor falls back on his terrible time in Andbang and states emphatically that they must rely on secrecy to survive until the Valar come. Turin scoffs this idea, stating there is only one Vala, Morgoth.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please discuss the pros and cons of this military strategy debate, as well as the prophecy Gwindor mentions about the messenger from Middle Earth to Valinor.'

Lilikate: 'Here I think Turin is as foolish as Pippin Took.'

Elimraen: 'This was a very interesting conversation!'

Elimraen: 'Melian is a Vala, right?'

Byrcha: 'Melian is a Maia, like Sauron.'

Elimraen: 'Oh, ok.'

Mornawen: 'A lesser Vala-like spirit.'

Hollyberye: 'I agree he is foolish, Lili, Turin.'

Lhinnthel: 'It was the most we've heard Turin speak in one sitting, maybe in the whole of the books so far!'

Byrcha: 'I wondered if this was a bit of a curse-like scene -- Turin is headstrong, and doesn't see the wisdom of the Elves' strategy.'

Mornawen: 'I think Gwindor, being an elf, sees a bigger picture. Turin lives in the moment, since he is a man.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin seems to have gone off the Elves some--well he was never as in love with them as his father.'

Lilikate: 'He is petulant.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin should be able to recognize that, Mornawen, but doesn't--and yes--it could be part of the curse evolution like Byrcha suggests'

Hollyberye: 'Very petulant, Lili, great word to describe him.'

Elimraen: 'And quite blinded and desperate.'

Hollyberye: 'So far as miliatary strategy goes, I can see why Turin as a man of action, wants aggressive warfare.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I agree it is partly a man versus Elven strategy--easier to be patient when you are ageless.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, and when you know people who have seen and spoken with the Valar.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, that could make a profound difference in one's outlook'

Byrcha: 'I agree that this also points out the contrast between the long-lived Elves and short-lived Men.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is compelling enough to become King Orodreth's chief counsellor and the Elves of Nargothrond prepare for open war, while Gwindor falls into dishonor. The author tells us that Turin reaches full manhood now and is given a very compelling description: "his face more beautiful than any other mortal men; his speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriatha;  and could be mistaken as one of the great houses of Noldor. He is valiant and exceedingly skilled. He dons dwarf-mail and a gilded dwarf-mask. It seems that Turin's mood is improved as he engages in work after his own heart and attracts Finduilas, daughter of Orodreth, and the betrothed of Gwindor, and a golden-haired beauty that puts him in mind of his sister Lalaith, who died at aged three.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please express the thoughts you have on the changing dynamics between Gwindor and Turin as Turin's counsel changes the way the elves are handling the Morgoth threat and as he unknowingly drives a wedge between Gwindor and his betrothed.'

Lilikate: 'He is given the same standing almost as high as an Elf.'

Hollyberye: 'Lili yes, he really is treated with great honor.'

Lilikate: 'His sister who he never thought of from 9 years till now?'

Hollyberye: 'Well, I assumed he was often thinking of his sister and mother.'

Mornawen: 'He never thought of her?'

Elimraen: 'It's sad really, because Turin doesn't even seem to realise that Finduilas loves him. So that part at least is naive of him.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, the naivety!!!'

Hollyberye: 'I am surprised, not for the first time, by Turin's naivety for such an intelligent man. Perhaps it is his way of turning his thoughts inward, obsessing on his situation?'

Hollyberye: 'I felt sorry for Gwindor.'

Elimraen: 'And his excuse for arguing against the Elves' military strategy seems really to be 'well I have the right to say what I think and you can't stop me''

Hollyberye: 'Yes, very self-absorbed.'

Elimraen: 'I did too, epecially since his loss of strength wasn't his fault at all.'

Hollyberye: 'Almost a perfect example of a man with so many great gifts at his disposal yet what he does with them....I meant Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, poor Gwindor.'

Mornawen: 'I wonder that Orodreth listens to him, except maybe Orodreth was used to listen to his brother, Finrod.'

Elimraen: 'Oh! Yes him too!'

Hollyberye: 'Orodreth must have fallen under Turin's spell--not a magical spell, just that he evidently had huge charisma and leadership ability.'

Hollyberye: 'He says he loves Gwindor but has opposed him greatly and is unaware of how his closeness with the King and the King's daughter pains Gwindor greatly. Gwindor tells Finduilas that she should go whither love leads her, that he is no longer fit to wed her. But then Gwindor goes on to tell Finduilas that this man is not like Beren and a doom lies on him. Gwindor reveals it is Turin, cursed by Morgoth. When Finduilas tells Turin she knows who he is, he is angry with Gwindor and tells him he betrayed his right name and calls down doom on him, from which he hid.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Gwindor replies that "The doom lies in yourself, not in your name." Comments, please on both the comparisons to Beren and on Gwindor's pronouncement that doom lies within him. Also, how can Turin think he hides from the curse by hiding his name?'

Byrcha: 'Turin is in denial, thinking he can hide from his fate. like hiding under the covers from lightning.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, that is a very apt analogy.'

Mornawen: 'It reminded me of Shakespeare, The fault is not in our stars but in ourselves, or something like that.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, well said! Yes.'

Elimraen: 'I wasn't sure what it meant by 'Turin was not like Beren! He did not scorn her..''

Elimraen: 'I don't know the story well at all. Did Beren scorn Finduilas, or what is that referring to?'

Hollyberye: 'Neither was I, so I defer to those who know the story better.'

Mornawen: 'Beren loved the elf-maid Luthien. They both got over the age difference. ;)'

Elimraen: 'On the name, since we know that people's and objects' names are so entangled with their identity, maybe that's why he is hiding from it.'

Elimraen: 'Lol Mornawen :)'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I thought it might imply something much more complex, Mornawen, that I just wasn't aware of.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, I wondered if they'd known each other.'

Elimraen: 'Just the mention of 'scorn' seemed strange.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought it was a bit cryptic.'

Hollyberye: 'In the final passage of the chapter we learn that Morwen and her daughter Nienor are able to finally flee Doriath, and abide with Thingol and Melian as their guests.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any additional thoughts on chapter ten?'

Elimraen: 'I liked all the mentions of Cirdan, because I know who he is :p.'

Elimraen: 'Oh, and..'

Lilikate: 'Me, too.'

Elimraen: 'Was it only Gwindor who knew Turin's real name at the start of this chapter?'

Mornawen: 'Yes, I think so.'

Elimraen: 'Because otherwise his mention of Hurin must have seemed quite out of the blue?'

Hollyberye: 'I think so--they said the elves knew there was more to the man than the name he gave himself but not that they knew it.'

Elimraen: 'Ok, thanks :)'

Mornawen: 'This is one of the few places where Tolkien actually brings in erotic attraction.'

Mornawen: 'Although it's called "love", of course.'

Hollyberye: 'You mean between Turin and Finduilas?'

Mornawen: 'Yes. She loves and wants him, and he thinks of her as a mother figure.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I agree she has fallen for him--I didn't see it as him thinking of her as a mother figure though. I'll have to think about that.'

Hollyberye: 'What do the rest of you think of that situation?'

Mornawen: 'Well, she says, "He holds me in awe, as were I both his mother and a queen."'

Elimraen: 'I thought he thought of her as family too.'

Elimraen: 'And he wished she were his sister. A bit confused there, Turin!'

Hollyberye: 'Oh excellent point, I guess I glossed over that. Yes, indeed!'

Mornawen: '*laughs*'

Hollyberye: 'His relationships are all confusing.'

Mornawen: 'She says he's "not yet awake", which I took to mean, he's never wanted a woman enough.'

Hollyberye: 'Well I am sure that is true--he's been living a monastic life.'

Elimraen: 'Oh I couldn't work out what that meant Mornawen!'

Lilikate: 'I wonder if it speaks of Tolkien's own perceptions of women.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Lili, very indicative of it I feel!'

Lilikate: 'Doh the naughty me imagines!'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Lili.'


Chapter XI: The Fall of Nargothrond

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien immediately reveals that Turin has resided in Nargothrond five years and is in command of all the Elvish forces there, stern, proud and very much in charge of military matters. Two Elves arrive, Gelmir and Arminas. Among other things, they are seeking Turgon, whose hidden kingdom is said to be the one that will last longest against Morgoth. This displeases King Orodreth. The two visitors talk about a gathering of the Enemy forces, which Turin interjects is stale news.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you think of the message from Cirdan, that evil has defiled the springs of Sirion, but worse is yet to come: Nargothrond must shut its doors and not go abroad. Discuss the reaction to this message.'

Lilikate: 'Oh something in the mines, perhaps!'

Hollyberye: 'Gelmir turns to Turin and asks if he is indeed from the House of Hador. Turin responds with black wrath and threatens him with Morgoth if he betrays the son of Hurin. Arminas is angered and says that Turin does not resemble the kin of Hador, whatever his name.'

Elimraen: 'It's reinforcing what the Elves thought at the start of the last chapter.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes it is, Elimraen.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Elim, the elves have a long view, and believe in prophecies.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turin's position on this is that he resembles his mother in looks but Arminas states it is a matter of bearing, courtesy and listening to good counsel. Do you feel Turin has drifted far from the Hurin we were initially introduced to?'

Lilikate: 'Why does Turin have to get angry though, it seems silly. Just say Yup and move along.'

Hollyberye: 'I found it interesting that Animas uses the words black and gold for the comparison of hair color; it seems like an emphasis on the darker heart of Turin.'

Mornawen: 'I think Turin is afraid of the curse, and that makes him lash out.'

Mornawen: 'And he is more his mother's son, though trying to live up to his father's reputation.'

Lilikate: 'I don't know... His mum was quite smart and at times Turin is really daft.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I feel he is very much his mother's son and less like his father than ever as time passes though. He has been out of their sphere of influence for years now.'

Mornawen: 'She is smart, but so full of pride.'

Hollyberye: 'Hurin was more of an open book and treasured the Elves.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Arminas says that if Turin takes counsel with his own wisdom, his sword only and speaks haughtily, "other" shall be his doom than one of the Houses of Hador and Beor might look for. How do you respond to that and to Turin's reaction to those words?'

Byrcha: 'Well, despite his foolishness, I'd be angry as Turin also -- if Cirdan knows the threat coming to Nargothrond, he doesn't speak it clearly enough.'

Hollyberye: 'I can empathize with the anger--he wanted to be secret. And he doesn't want to be opposed.'

Hollyberye: 'Gelmir and Arminas leave, with Orodreth troubled by their message and Turin's mood darkens again. Now we are treated to a description of how the forces of evil are succeeding, leading to the warriors of Nargothrond going forth with Turin uplifting their hearts, looking so tall and terrible.'

Hollyberye: 'None but Turin could withstand Glaurung, the Father of Dragons. The King is slain and Gwindor is mortally wounded. Turin carries him to a wood,and Gwindor utters his last words to Turin.'

Lilikate: 'Not a good combination!'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Can anyone tell us more about Glaurung, the Father of Dragons, leading up to this point, not foretelling the future? I confess I couldn't resist researching Glaurung.'

Lilikate: 'Morgoths pet wyrm?'

Hollyberye: 'The most magical of dragons--he sired the rest of his race or at least the fire-breathing ones.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Lili--bred by Morgoth.'

Lilikate: 'Oh, more than a pet then a family member.'

Mornawen: 'I thought it interesting, he doesn't have wings.'

Hollyberye: 'He was treated like a commander.'

Lilikate: 'How does her get about then?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes! I also noticed that Mornawen--I wondered, too.'

Byrcha: 'Lack of wings is interesting, since some later ones have them in the first age.'

Elimraen: 'Waddles.'

Mornawen: 'I wonder if those early dragons had longer legs.'

Lilikate: 'Quack cough opps sorry!'

Mornawen: 'Waddles-- hehe!'

Elimraen: 'What does it mean that he had an evil spirit in him?'

Lilikate: 'That he likes a tipple of Rum?'

Byrcha: 'Just leaves no doubt (as with Sauron, etc.) -- they's evil, that's all there is to it.'

Hollyberye: 'hahah'

Elimraen: 'Haha!'

Lilikate: 'Get those fires started!'

Elimraen: 'Ah, ok. I wondered if it was some evil spirit that was enabling him to talk or something.'

Mornawen: 'Maybe that Morgoth drew one of the lesser primal spirits to dwell in him? *laughs at Lili*'

Byrcha: 'Could be -- we aren't told much of how Morgoth created these beings.'

Hollyberye: 'No, all I could find was Morgoth bred him of unknown stock.'

Lilikate: 'Maybe the spirit is a bit of Morgoth's bad temper?'

Hollyberye: 'It well might be!!!'

Mornawen: 'Genetic manipulation, over hundreds of years.'

Lilikate: 'If Sauron can put himself in a ring, why not Morgoth in a Dragon?'

Mornawen: 'Yes, the evil will.'

Byrcha: 'Glaurung is a bit different, cunning, more of a major character (like Sauron in the Beren/Luthien story), so plausible that he might be a Maiar but we're not told'

Mornawen: 'Were the Balrogs Maiar? I forget.'

Hollyberye: 'Now that's a very interesting thought.'

Byrcha: 'I think they were, but don't recall the reference now.'

Mornawen: 'But there are other spirits, too, like Ungoliant.'

Hollyberye: 'We left Turin hovering over the dying Gwindor during this fierce battle, but off in the woods:'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Gwindor says that though he loves Turin, he regrets saving him from the orcs, and but for Turin he would have love and life. He says "save Finduilas, she alone stands between you and your doom." What does this mean to you?'

Elimraen: 'I wasn't sure that Gwindor was right about that, Holly. Why wouldn't Finduilas fall under the influence of the curse just like everyone else Turin spent time with?'

Byrcha: 're Turin's last chance to avoid his doom -- I see it as a bit tragic, on the pattern of Shakespeare.'

Hollyberye: 'Great point--every one he touches seems to come to no good now.'

Mornawen: 'He really should have saved Finduilas.'

Hollyberye: 'Either way she might have been destroyed even though, yes he should have heeded Gwindor.'

Byrcha: 'a bit like an aside: you still have one more chance, Turin, don't muck it up'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, indeed.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin describes the sacking of Nargothrond by orcs and dragon as "ghastly." Only the women and maidens that were not burned or slain are herded together to be taken as slaves to Angband. Then comes an epic scene between Turin and Glaurung. "Hail, son of Hurin. Well met!" exclaims the Father of Dragons to Turin, blocking the way between Turin and the bridge. Turin is fearless but Glaurung opens his serpent eyes wide and casts a dreadful spell upon Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Galurung uses seven horrible characterizations to describe Turin to his face, ranging from thankless fostering to deserter of his kin. How is Galurung to know all these details? Is the dragon casting them in their worst light or are they all quite accurate?'

Hollyberye: 'They were: thankless fostering, outlaw, slayer of your friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy and deserter of your kin.'

Byrcha: 'Interesting to reread it -- Turin, instead of heeding the wisdom of cunning, rushes at the dragon -- headstrong again.'

Elimraen: 'It sounds like..the things you'd tell yourself about yourself if you really wanted to beat yourself up, if you were in a really low place. Kind of the truth but also kind of twisting it.'

Byrcha: 'Some of both, I think. Such is the nature of evil.'

Mornawen: 'Yes.'

Hollyberye: 'That's a thoughtful way of expressing it. Yes, at face value they really all are true. But he didn't INTEND all that.'

Elimraen: 'No sad'

Hollyberye: 'He didn't think he was a thief of love, for instance. The friend slayer was an accident for which he dearly paid. He didn't mean to be a thankless foster son to the elven king. He certainly was an outlaw, though.'

Mornawen: 'I wonder how Glaurung knew about Finduilas' love.'

Hollyberye: 'Exactly--I wondered.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, all those descriptions are really one-faceted.'

Byrcha: 'One-sided, but not un-true exactly. And, intended to torment him.'

Hollyberye: 'He certainly did not think he was a foolhardy captain, although it turned out that way.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'and the torment now becomes unbearable:'

Hollyberye: 'Now Glaurung tells Turin that his mother and sister live in Dor-lomin in misery and want, rags and yearning for him. Under the dragon's spell, Turin sees himself in a mirror misshapen by malice and is filled with self-loathing.'

Hollyberye: 'And although Finduilas cries out for Turin as the orcs lead the captives by, he is frozen to the spot. The voice of her cry will haunt him forever, we are told.'

Hollyberye: 'Freed of the spell, too late to save Finduilas, Turin tries to stab the dragon and the Glaurung concedes that he is valiant. For that Turin is allowed to go to his mother and sister.'

Byrcha: 'Accusing him of not going to Finduilas, when the dragon himself prevented him -- that also is when the dragon may have learned of Finduilas.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, that's true.'

Hollyberye: 'But this is part of the errand of Morgoth, which Glaurung has accomplished. The dragon burns what remains, gathers the riches and rests upon them. We leave Turin hurrying on his way in the fell winter, to find Morwen and Nienor, despite being continually haunted by the cries of Finduilas'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please comment on this turn of events at the end of the chapter. Do you feel pity for Turin?'

Byrcha: 'I still wonder how dragons gather gold and gems, with no hands, from within tinyer-than-them rooms ... :P.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--there is a literary term--suspension from disbelief or something like that.'

Byrcha: 'No, I'm furious at Turin -- he had so many chances to thwart his fate, and didn't.'

Elimraen: 'Haha, now I'm imagining some kind of complicated vacuuming system!'

Hollyberye: 'We are asked to imagine the impossible.'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien's use of dragons to cast spells and lies is a stroke of brilliance; or had this characteristic already been used in literature?'

Byrcha: 'Describe it! 'the dragon snarfled up the gold with his long tongue, then deposited in the great hall''

Mornawen: 'How big was Glaurung? Smaug was pretty big, but maybe Glaurung was smaller? Like maybe 20 feet?'

Elimraen: 'I still feel sorry for Turin! I'm still on his side. It's hard not to see him as the victim that he sees himself as, in some ways.'

Mornawen: 'Or the tongue, lol.'

Lilikate: 'I feel sorry for him, but I wish he was more likable.'

Elimraen: 'I don't know Byrcha...inhaling it all and spitting it out :p'

Lilikate: 'Or even reasonable'

Elimraen: 'Or coughing it out, ew.'

Hollyberye: 'I found the writing in this chapter very uneven--from the archaic to the compelling.'

Byrcha: 'Maybe he swept it around with his prehensile tail instead.'

Hollyberye: 'I found the last scene very compelling reading.'

Byrcha: 'Glaurung's words were interesting in that sense, the higher-style.'

Mornawen: 'I feel frustrated on Turin's behalf, he seems a lost soul.'

Hollyberye: 'I felt more sorry for Turin than I had in years. I mean years of HIS life...to be such a gifted man but so self-absorbed and inwardly doomed.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. It seems to me that Morgoth is now taking an active role in making his curse on Hurin's family a reality. Perhaps there was a delay because Turin was veiled to him; perhaps his fear that Turin was growing too great and could potentially shake off the curse was spurring him on. What thoughts do you have on Morgoth escalating the curse or am I imagining all that?'

Lilikate: 'It is a trait in common with the evil lords Sauron and Morgoth.'

Mornawen: 'So now he has guilt for the fall of Nargothrond on him, too.'

Elimraen: 'He took seriously what Glaurung told him, which wasn't his fault. He was under a spell and he was lied to sad'

Byrcha: 'True ... but he didn't go after Finduilas when he first arrived and might have saved her, playing into the dragon's trap with his headstrong way.'

Elimraen: 'That is true too :)'

Mornawen: 'I think Morgoth has many irons in the fire, but all his minions know of Hurin, and the special hatred.'

Byrcha: 'We discussed that last time, didn't we? Morgoth became aware of Turin after a while?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, when they were living with Mim. But also Tolkien wrote Morgoth was worried Turin would grow so great as to shake off the curse (last time). So I felt maybe Morgoth thought it was time to escalate the curse.'

Byrcha: 'Well, Morgoth needn't have worried *shakesfist at Turin's foolishness*'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, self-fulfilling prophecy abounds here.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, and the third one would take us to Morwen's story.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments on these two chapters?'

Hollyberye: 'The next session will cover chapters 12 and 13 and will be held June 6th at 4PM. Thank you!'

NEWCOMERS WELCOME to join the next sesssion!
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

I'm unlikely to make it tonight sad Hope you have a good meeting, looking forward to reading the chat!


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club 6 June 2015

The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Chapter XII: The Return of Turin to Dor-lomin and Chapter XIII: The Coming of Turin into Brethil


Thank you to our participants: Mithmenelien, Mornawen, Byrcha, Hollyberye, Viyoley

Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate. Do we have any new listeners? Otherwise I will skip the preamble. In this session we are covering chapters 12 and 13. Thank you for taking time out of your busy Middle Earth lives to join in :)'

Chapter XII: The Return of Turin to Dor-lomin

Hollyberye: 'Turin journeys back to his childhood home, after a 23 year absence. "It was bleak and bare; and the people there were few and churlish, and they spoke the harsh tongue of the Easterlings, and the old tongue was become the language of serfs, or of foes.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What did you think of Tolkien's description of Dor-lomin, as a conquered land? Have you ever returned somewhere that has changed so dramatically?'

Byrcha: 'Return of Turin to Dor-Lomin ... or: It's About Blinking Time!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, such a long, long, long time.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought Tolkien captured the feel of the conquered land well. You really get a sense of the loss of hope and the breeding of cruelty.'

Byrcha: 'I did also. not just the description, but the mood of the people as well.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--the mood.'

Mornawen: 'Yes.. all the warriors were gone and the new, rude people came in.'

Hollyberye: 'Desolate in appearance and well-being--or lack of well-being. It gives me a whole new take on Easterlings as real people.'

Hollyberye: 'Generally when a person returns to their childhood home after a long absence--it seems smaller. But also they often look fondly upon certain objects. Turin doesn't have that opportunity.

Hollyberye: Turin's old home is empty and dark so he begs for shelter from Brodda. It turns out that the old man he speaks to is his old friend Labadal (Sador). He reveals that Lady Morwen and Nienor went away secretly. Turin defies Sador's advice and enters the hall boldly where Brodda and other Easterling lords are seated. He demands to know where his mother and sister are. Lady Aerin is terrified to reveal her knowledge and her husband Brodda is angered. Turin holds his sword to the Easterling Lord's throat, reveals who he is and demands the truth from Lady Aerin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is this foolish impetuosity or admirable bravery on Turin's part?'

Byrcha: 'Most unwise, in general.'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe both ;)''

Hollyberye: 'I felt that he was admirably motivated by desperation and his longing to do right by his mother and sister, I think. I was surprised I felt that way.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Holly.'

Hollyberye: 'I expected to feel it was most unwise.'

Byrcha: 'About a decade too late on the desperation though, methinks.'

Hollyberye: 'That's a good point--a decade late is about right.'

Viyoley: 'I find him brave, maybe because I read as a romantic reader.'

Mornawen: 'He's acting first, without thinking how it will affect Aerin and the others.'

Mithmenelien: 'His emotions ruled him.'

Mithmenelien: 'I loved that we got to meet Labadal again, that was nice :)'

Hollyberye: 'Agreed--more on him in a minute--but yes Turin is a man of POWERFUL emotions! No lack of them.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Mith. :)'

Hollyberye: 'He learns that Brodda plundered the house of Morwen, and that they fled a year and three months ago, being bidden to the Hidden Kingdom, after much oppression. She fears their plans went awry as Turin was supposed to be in the Hidden Kingdom. At this, Turin cries out that all is ever awry, as crooked as Morgoth. Suddenly he is overcome in a black wrath and the spell of Glaurang is gone.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How do you react to this scene--an impassioned one, well conceived by Tolkien, I believe...the revelation to Turin that he was deceived by the dragon and how he reacts in the Hall of the Lord Brodda?'

Hollyberye: '(he hears the cries of Finuilas in his head; he lifts and shakes Brodda, throws him and breaks his neck)'

Byrcha: 'A bit of madness takes him, it seems ... hearing voices. But again, acting without thinking.'

Hollyberye: 'I was struck by his super human strength, too.'

Byrcha: 'It would make for a good movie scene wink'

Mornawen: 'I picture Brodda as short, and Turin is tall, but still.'

Hollyberye: 'That it would!'

Hollyberye: 'I felt that pointed to how exceptional he is as a man--I mean in terms of being endowed with more than others--in many ways--none of which is really used for the good except orc killing.'

Hollyberye: 'In addition to killing Brodda with a display of almost super human strength, the old of the community rebel, with great fighting ensuing. Turin slays the remaining Easterlings. Not surprisingly for the way in which this tale travels, his dear old friend Saldor is mortally wounded. Saldor urges Turin to flee with his dying breath; this is seconded by Lady Aerin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why isn't there more weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth over Saldor's death?'

Mithmenelien: 'About the last question, It makes me think of people with suppressed traumatic memories, who suddenly in an explosion remember everything.'

Byrcha: 'Heh, just another casualty along Turin's trail? Aerin as well is a casualty, and she rebukes him for it, though nobly.'

Viyoley: 'I'm questioning now which is memory, which is reality? I need some clarification...'

Hollyberye: 'Usually we see Turin torn to pieces over the loved one he inevitably leads to their death, but not much time was spent on Saldor.'

Mornawen: 'He was old and close to death anyways?'

Mithmenelien: 'That is a bit odd. He was so close to him.'

Byrcha: 'Times like this I think of how this story is more of a near-final draft than a final draft.'

Hollyberye: 'Or maybe this was a part of the story that Tolkien didn't spend as much time on? Yes, Byrcha!'

Hollyberye: 'He did the overall book in several parts, separately.'

Byrcha: 'Which part are you questioning, Viy?'

Hollyberye: 'And maybe that is why this section is a bit different'

Viyoley: 'Things with death of Saldor, a little bit complicated.'

Hollyberye: 'Well Saldor was still in the old place but under the protection of Lady Aerin--if you can call it that. When Turin killed Brodda it started a rebellion and Saldor was killed in the melee, but he urged Turin to flee with his dying breath--does that help?'

Viyoley: 'Aye, but usually Tolkien mentions death with lament not really using one but in a way of a song goes, maybe this part is not written by him? Do we know?'

Hollyberye: 'Christopher swears all was written by Tolkien. He just pieced it together.'

Mithmenelien: 'It's like Labadal fought and died for the same cause that he had fled from earlier in the war, maybe he found peace in that.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, maybe he did.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you think of Aerin's reaction to this scene--"ill though my life was, you have brought death to me with your violence." And she says that rash are his deeds, as if you were still but the child she knew.'

Byrcha: 'That's what I meant about another unthinking casualty -- because Turin has slain a leader of the Easterlings, with no plan for rescuing anyone, they will come for revenge -- on Aerin/etc.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, well-said Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin asks her to come with him but she refuses. Others flee with Turin and when they spy the hall in flame later, he received a different interpretation on Lady Aerin. "Many a man of arms misreads patience and quiet."'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Lady Aerin has been painted as one who succumbs to whatever comes her way. She turns out to be more complex. Please comment on this minor but interesting take on a woman in Tolkien's world.'

Mithmenelien: 'Lady Aerin seems very noble in a land of savages indeed.'

Hollyberye: 'You anticipated my question, Mithmenelien :)'

Hollyberye: 'The implication is she is made of sterner stuff than was thought. But also she has been secretly defying her forced into marriahe husband, by helping the house of Morwen.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin is told to stay away now unless he can return with the strength to deliver the men on the run and the captives of the community.'

Mornawen: 'She realized she could no longer be of use to her people.'

Byrcha: 'A bit like the Galadriel/Melian mode though -- Aerin knows much, and acts as she can, but not openly (circumstances different than Galadrield/Melian of course).'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and Aerin doesn't have the background to be as helpful and powerful as the Elven women. But she does what she can.'

Byrcha: 'A bit more matter-of-fact/commonsensical, much like Turin's let's-attack vs the Elves hide-in-the-woods mode.'

Byrcha: 'So, it contrasts elves and men a bit.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes she gave practical help where really needed.'

Hollyberye: 'Lady Aerin gets a better treatment in this chapter.'

Mornawen: 'Tolkien does allow women to be valiant, in their own way. :)'

Mithmenelien: 'She is like an underground resistance in a land of war.'

Byrcha: 'Yes to both!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, when I saw her painted in a different light, I thought about Eowyn and some others.'

Hollyberye: 'Underground resistance--exactly--and valiant in that way.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments on this chapter? These two chapters are shorter than what we have had thus far by the way. But the chapter after them is much longer and switches course completely.'

Byrcha: 'But also a bit of a Norse funeral pyre motif.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, the picture of the fire is very strong.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes it looks devastating.'

Byrcha: 'Encountered a new word: runagate :P'

Hollyberye: 'I don't know that! What does it mean?'

Byrcha: 'Was used in the description of an outlaw's hideout, like a word for outlaw.'

Viyoley: 'I know the Turkish meaning but... can't translate :S'

Hollyberye: 'Great word. Evocative. Vi you amaze me all the time with your languages. Well, so do all you others with English not your first language.'


Chapter XIII: The Coming of Turin into Brethil

Hollyberye: 'Turin is faced with three bitter choices now: seek his mother and sister, or seek Finduilas, and the third being help his own oppressed people to whom he had just brought more woe. As he believes his mother and sister must be safe with Melian, he decides to seek Finduilas. He comes upon people of Haleth from the Forest of Brethil in a desperate situation of fending off a band of orcs.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please react to the method Turin uses to alarm the orcs as well as their reaction to his sword, Gurthang.'

Byrcha: 'He's already dispensed with the third choice. Interestingly, three people tell him: thanks for helping us, but, um, please leave.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, he brings woe upon those he aids...'

Byrcha: 'Orcs aren't too bright -- they fell for his ruse -- but they're bright enough to recognize his sword.'

Mornawen: 'Orcs don't seem to fight with any inspiration, they just want to overwhelm and pillage, so they are easily dismayed, maybe.'

Hollyberye: 'I also thought that we are seeing how resourceful Turin is, as well as astonishingly brave. Like I mentioned in the chapter before--I think Tolkien wanted to make it clear how gifted this man is.'

Viyoley: 'With the brilliance of the sword, Turin managed to "seem" crowded or powerful somehow, at least orcs think that way, as I understand.'

Hollyberye: 'Even though he misuses his gifts ultimately.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, he was having his debate, but there is no debate when there is a call for valor.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, and we actually see some of his charm, in the joke he makes about it.'

Hollyberye: 'It is almost as if that Tolkien as a writer wants to remind us this isn't just a man doomed. I admit I was tending to forget Turin was exceptional except for his ability to mesmorize with his charisma.'

Hollyberye: 'The men of Brethil say he is worth many and he replies that slaying orcs is his trade. Now he calls himself Wildman of the Woods. Turin says he is on a grievous errand and begs to know of news of Finduilas, daughter of Orodreth of Nargothrond. The men look piteously upon Turin and tell him the orc-host came slowly by due to the large number of captives they held. The men waylaid them so the orcs immediately slew the women captives. They fastened Finduilas to a tree with a spear. One of the men tells Turin that she spoke to him before she died, the month before. "Tell the Mormegil (Turin) that Finduilas is here." Turin lays on the burial mound as if dead, and it becomes apparent that he is the great Captain of the Nargothrond, Mormegil. They know of the fame of the Black Sword of the South.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Do you feel that now that it is too late, Turin returns Finduilas's love, if not her desire for him?'

Mornawen: 'No, I felt he just added another to his register of guilt.'

Hollyberye: 'Well, after he was released from the dragon's spell, he became more obsessed about her, too, I think.'

Hollyberye: 'The men bear Turin with reverence to Ephel Brandir. Brandir looks upon Turin with dismay and asks why did they hold back death from this man? They have "brought hither the last bane of our people."'

Viyoley: 'He is not the best kind of a lover, it's obvious...'

Hollyberye: 'He has never loved a woman romantically so far.'

Hollyberye: 'The woodsmen argue that he will be a great help to them all and Brandir agrees they had no choice, that Doom willed it.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What kind of insight does Brandir have to take one look at Turin and say he is their last bane?'

Byrcha: 'How does Brandir know of Turin and the curse (I'm misremembering perhaps, or is it a plot device?)'

Mornawen: 'Brandir's prophecy kind of comes out of nowhere.'

Hollyberye: 'Exactly, Byrcha--how does he read this as their last bane?'

Byrcha: 'Heh, your question is clearer Holly wink'

Hollyberye: 'I had more time to think about it--having written it in advance wink'

Byrcha: 'Did we meet Brandir earlier in the story? as in, would he know of Turin other than general rumors.'

Hollyberye: 'So here to me is an example of uneven writing. Some parts of these two chapters are so well written and then here we have someone out of nowhere, and a man, not an elf, talking as if they know about the curse. **There is a reason often why an author's unpublished works are unpublished** although these tales were printed elsewhere.'

Byrcha: 'hehe, yes'

Mornawen: 'I don't think Brandir knows about the curse. I got the impression he just saw something doomish in Turin.'

Byrcha: 'Some of these questions would have been raised by an editor'

Hollyberye: 'Yes!!!!'

Hollyberye: 'I know Tolkien worked on it off and on for decades, but he didn't finish it.'

Hollyberye: 'Not for the first time, we see Turin shake off his profound darkness, but it seems somewhat different this time (or does it?). "...the courage of the House of Hador awoke in him" and he calls it a new day.'

Byrcha: 'So Brandir becomes seer/prophet here, foreshadowing more woe.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, it certainly is overt foreshadowing.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why does Turin renounce his name and kin and vow to put his shadow behind him? He now calls himself Master of Doom: Turambar. And do all these names serve a purpose?'

Byrcha: 'Well, it has been a page or two since Turin took a new name, so it was time? :P'

Viyoley: 'They always do.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes I started to make a list :D'

Mornawen: 'A new name, but a prideful one, in Quenya, "Master of Doom"... lol Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'At some point I will list all the names in order, not today though.'

Hollyberye: 'A most prideful man, Mornawen!'

Byrcha: 'But it is also perhaps bringing us to the end of the plot-road -- I wonder how well the name-choices divide the plot.'

Mornawen: 'He could have picked a typical Brethil-type name, but no.'

Hollyberye: 'Very self-absorbed too, as always.'

Byrcha: 'Right, no Hero-of-Brethil here.'

Byrcha: 'tis a defiant name, trying to evade his past/the curse.'

Hollyberye: 'and not the first time he has tried to evade things'

Hollyberye: 'Turin dwells in Brethil, where Brandir hoped to preserve his people by silence and secrecy. Although Turin gains the love of these people, Brandir is displeased that Turin continues to hunt Orc. Turin puts his famed sword aside to appease Brandir, but still hunts with bow and spear. He is especially protective of the elf-lady's burial mound.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Again we see Turin's real identity discovered and his desire to hide it. Do you believe this continual pattern of hiding from who he is, is a desire to change his ways or to hide from the curse?'

Hollyberye: 'ahh you anticipated me, Lady Byrcha :)'

Viyoley: 'Probably will bring the curse stronger.'

Byrcha: 'Both I'd say, but unfortunately he fails.'

Mornawen: '*nods*'

Hollyberye: 'Yes he did the same thing with Beleg. I think on the surface he really thinks he can change his ways but the underlying motive is to flee/hide from his curse. When in fact he is responsible for what he does for the most part--only the Dragon's mesmerizing him was really from the outside.'

Mornawen: 'He wants to help those he loves, and not have everything turn out so badly. It's frustrating.'

Hollyberye: 'Vi we discussed themes a lot early on--and will probably wrap up with them in the end of the book's discussion.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I do agree he wants to help those he loves but he so often doesn't see his chosen course of action will NOT help them.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments on chapter 13?'

The group decided that to keep the discussions going they would switch to one chapter a week and try for the 45 minutes to an hour after the Sunday Andune concert, and before SNS, with WCS launching.

Next Session: 14 June 2015 (Sunday) at @4:15PM after Andune Ensemble: Chapter XIV: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Hollyberye wrote:
Next Session: 14 June 2015 (Sunday) at @4:15PM after Andune Ensemble: Chapter XIV: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond


I'm glad I checked-- I'd forgotten about the new time! See you all tomorrow!


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session 7: 14 June 2015
Chapter XIV: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond

Attendees: Hollyberye, Lilikate, Lhinnthel, Corulin, Elimraen, Mornawen, Byrcha, Mithmenelien, Viyoley, Shintako, Morfindiel, Calanne, Zedrockk

Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club, hosted by Hollyberye and Lilikate. We are gathered at The Bird and Baby Inn to continue discussion of The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien, in this, our seventh session. We picked this venue because members of Tolkien's Inkling Club regularly gather here, and they would appreciate hearing of their old friend. All text in /lmbbookclub will be logged and posted in the LMB forum for the benefit of anyone who wants to keep up with the discussion but cannot attend all sessions. Please post every thought germane to the discussion in /lmbbookclub. As we proceed, a statement beginning with Q. means those are specific discussion points. However, we welcome other discussion points concerning the section of the book that we are covering at that moment and will remind you of that regularly. In this session we are covering Chapter 14.'

Lilikate: 'Hello Book Club'

Corulin: 'Hello everyone!'

Lhinnthel: 'Hello! I am here in spirit!'

Hollyberye: 'Welcome to our new members! We are delighted to have you join us.'

Mithmenelien: 'Welcome! :D'

Viyoley: 'And also Hi!'

Chapter XIV: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond

Hollyberye: 'We now turn our attention at long last to not just the child of Hurin but the children of Hurin. The chapter opens with general speculation about the tidings of Nargothrond and that the famed Black Sword was Turin. Morwen and Nienor are distressed. Thingol wants to find out what happened but fears Turin has been killed and does not want to upset Morwen more. Morwen wants to seek Turin, and Thingol wants to keep her safe in Doriath.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Melian says that Morgoth is willing Morwen to go forth in danger to seek news of Turin. What do you think--is it Morwen's own heartfelt urge, or is it the curse on Hurin that spurs her into danger?'

Lilikate: 'I think it is totally Morgoth's will!'

Shintako: 'I think there are those more or less prone to being influenced by Morgoth's will.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that it is natural for a mother to feel that way, but I also thinks nothing good has ever come from people not listening to Melian so far in the book!'

Elimraen: 'Probably a mix. She'd want to find her son of course, but the timing of it and their knowledge means that they will head towards the dragon.'

Mornawen: 'I think maybe Morwen feels guilt for sending Turin off alone, when he was a boy, so she's frantic to compensate.'

Lilikate: 'It's like telling the kid in the movie to stay in the car!'

Hollyberye: 'Very good point that no good has come of ignoring Melian' Heed the Elves! wink and she is a very sepcial one.'

Morfindiel: 'No good ever comes of ignoring your wife.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, she is very wise and a Maia, too! and hello to the newcomers :D'

Lilikate: 'Yes good point, Holly.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, I think the guilt of sending him off has weighed on her.'

Viyoley: '*agreed- Mithmeleien'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why is Morwen so anxious NOW to find her son--she knew nought of how he fared for years and years, right?'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that now, it comes from Morgoth, her feelings have probably always been there but Morgoth influence made her act on them now.'

Hollyberye: 'I just couldn't quite figure out why NOW she has to find him. I would have gone after him years ago despite the hard journey'

Mornawen: 'Well, now her daughter is grown, she can go off on her own.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh I had not thought of that--Morgoth!'

Shintako: 'I'm starting to think Morgoth led me into this infernal maze!'

Hollyberye: 'Shintako :D'

Hollyberye: 'Morwen takes her departure from her daughter and slips away but Thingol has her followed with ten men. ((I personally would notice it if ten men were following me...))'

Hollyberye: 'Q. The narrative says she went through Region and to the shores of Sirion--this would be Eregion, correct?'

Lilikate: 'Whats with all the going into the woods and wandering off?'

Morfindiel: 'No....still in Beleriand.'

Hollyberye: 'We need a geography check from our knowledgeable friends...ahhhh okay.'

Morfindiel: 'Erigion would be to the east'

Mithmenelien: 'Region is one of the forests of Doriath'

Hollyberye: 'Thank you'

Hollyberye: 'Lili I agree--loads of that here.'

Hollyberye: 'It is clear she does not know the way, so Thingol's men make themselves known to her. Mablung says he will help her, though he wishes to take her back to Thingol and relative safety.'

Mornawen: 'http://www.theonering.com/galleries/maps-calendars-genealogies/maps-calendars-genealogies/map-of-beleriand-during-the-first-age-j-r-r-tolkien'

Hollyberye: 'I should have consulted my maps but it was a terribly busy week.'

Morfindiel: 'I think it has to do with more primitive times too...people not as afraid of the forest as in later times because it is their home.'

Hollyberye: 'Very true--natural surroundings.'

Mithmenelien: 'It's the part of the forest that is to the south of Esgalduin.'

Hollyberye: 'Thank you!'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does it not seem unusual to you that Thingol would be so solicitous? Is there a compelling reason for him to let her have her way and yet spend so many resources to watch over her?'

Mithmenelien: 'He seams to have become a bit milder from all his exsperiences with Turin, maybe.'

Hollyberye: 'I understood his attachment to Turin...but now it seems even greater, which surprised me. By aiding Turin's mother so much on something he thinks is insane to do.'

Lilikate: 'Maybe he has had it with stupid Humans.'

Zedrockk: '((*gets up and tries to join the bar as discreetly as possible))'

Hollyberye: 'Ah ha--a plot to get rid of them? wink'

Lilikate: '((I go get a drink too))'

Mithmenelien: 'maybe it is a way to make up for misjudging Turin earlier.'

Hollyberye: 'But he also knows those human resources he supplies are in great danger--of course they all are when they venture out.'

Mornawen: 'And also, he does want news of Nargothrond, anyways.'

Hollyberye: 'I need a strong drink!'

Elimraen: 'He'd have understood how stubborn that family is, maybe he knew she would go anyway, since she's not a prisoner there, and wanted to protect her because he loves Turin.'

Lilikate: 'I like books hic!'

Calanne: 'I mead a lot, I mean read a lot.'

Hollyberye: '::laughing here::'

Lilikate: 'Getting a drink is oki!'

Hollyberye: 'Okay I agree that news of Nargothrond is a good reason...see this is what I get out the club--you all give different perspectives.'

Lilikate: 'Why couldn't they have had better security?'

Mithmenelien: 'or maybe Melian told him to, she does have some insight into things :)'

Hollyberye: 'Yes and he did misjudge Turin! Good point.'

Viyoley: 'Geographically not possible, I suppose? Lili.'

Hollyberye: 'Mablung leads Morwen to the Twilit Meres and to the hidden ferries amid the creeks and reeds. Morwen counts the guards and discovers an extra...it is revealed to be the golden-headed Nienor, who has secretly followed.'

Hollyberye: 'Although ordered to go back, Nienor makes an impassioned speech: "If the wife of Hurin can go forth against all counsel at the call of kindred, then so also can Hurin's daughter. Mourning you named me, but I will not mourn alone, for father, brother and mother. But of these you only have I known, and above all do I love. And nothing that you fear not do I fear."'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What does this tell you about Nienor? This is our first real glimpse of her.'

Mornawen: 'I thought it was interesting, Nienor has her father's fair hair, but her mother's grey eyes.'

Mithmenelien: 'She reminds me of Hurin :)'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Mith, more than Turin does!'

Hollyberye: 'I liked that we see her stand up for herself, show determination, be her own person. And yes great point, she is like Hurin!!! the father she never met.'

Viyoley: 'She is also brave, fierce and ready to do whatever she could do, a little bit masculine for a Tolkien woman.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Viy, when we see a woman in Tolkien my thoughts perk up. Also her strong attachments to her brother and father who she never met are so strong but also believable for the time and story, I thought.'

Mornawen: 'She's tall enough to fit in with the band of elves.'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, she has both her father's mind and his courage.'

Hollyberye: 'As the two women decide to proceed into the unknown, Mablung says that "it is by lack of counsel not of courage that Hurin's kin bring woe to others!" He also says they are all fey.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is Mablung speaking in general or predicting grave trouble from this? Is the curse common knowledge or is he basing his percipience by simply gauging the situation?'

Mithmenelien: 'I think it comes from the wisdom of the elves'

Hollyberye: 'I could be reading more into what he said, too.'

Byrcha: 'I keep thinking of characters like Mablung as some sort of narrator-type from a play.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, by them not taking Melian's advice.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, good point Byrcha.'

Mornawen: 'A Greek chorus?'

Hollyberye: 'And Yes Mornawen--they respect Melian to the utmost'

Byrcha: 'Kind of, Molly...except this chorus seems to get bumped off along the way.'

Mornawen: '*laughs*'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that Morwen should have turned back then her daughter asked her to. Risking one child's life to save another is not a wise decision, surely this is the work of Morgoth, and Mablung might have thought so, too.'

Hollyberye: That's right risking one for the other is dreadful'

Mornawen: 'I'm uncomfortable blaming Morgoth, though.'

Hollyberye: 'And Morwen cannot see the hand of Morgoth in events like the Elves can'

Mithmenelien: 'yes the elves see the world from a kind of an outside perspective compared to humans'

Hollyberye: 'yes and a long perspective'

Hollyberye: 'I do think so much of this book is about the balance between what is directed by Morgoth and what is self-will, one's own choices'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Holly.'

Hollyberye: 'Mablung leads them to Amon Ethir, the Spyhill, and uses his Elven-sight to see the terraces of Narthothrond. He sees no sign of the Dragon. Alas! Glaurung was laying in wait for the spies. We learn his vision is even keener than the Elves and the Eagles.'

Hollyberye: 'Suddenly the dragon comes forth with a great blast of fire, crawls into the stream, and engulfs them in a blinding steam and foul stench. But the brave Mablung hides as he feels it is his duty to find more about Turin.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does Glaurung's use of fire in the water put you in mind of anything particular? Glauraung is described as a mighty worm yet lithe and he moves fast...on foot presumably?'

Byrcha: 'Right, he doesn't fly.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, no wings--but I wondered if he could still fly without wings--but this seems to confirm he cannot.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that he has a the body of a huge snake. In the Swedish translation the word worm is translated to Lindorm which is a huge snake like creature from norse mythology, like the Midgard Serpent.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, thank you so much Mith! That could very well have been Tolkien's inspiration. This and the following description give a stronger description of the dragon than I had seen before.'

Mornawen: 'Glaurung apparently moves pretty fast though, for a wyrm.'

Viyoley: '*side question about lore* Are all the elves like that or just the great, great first age elves able to see everything?'

Byrcha: 'I think that is a general elven trait, Viy?'

Viyoley: 'thanks!'

Hollyberye: 'I think general trait too, but Melian was special--exceptional--and so much of this guidance came from her.'

Mornawen: 'And maybe some elves were more talented, or worked harder to develop their talents, just like men.'

Hollyberye: 'Well to answer my own question, it put in my mind of Yellowstone Nat'l Park and the fumeroles and vents.'

Byrcha: 'ah, yes!'

Hollyberye: 'one of my favorite places on Planet earth'

Elimraen: 'Oh yes, or the geysers in Iceland!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes! I would love to visit those 'have only seen pictures'

Hollyberye: 'The watchers that remained behind at the spy hill bade Morwen and Nienor to mount but as they take to the plain, the hideous vapors terrorize the horses. Nienor is thrown from her wild horse and is suddenly lost in the mist.'

Hollyberye: 'She displays remarkable wit and calmness, deciding to seek for the hill. But she walks right to the great head of Glaurung and her eyes look into his, the eyes of his master Morgoth.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Please share your thoughts and feelings about the conversation Glaurung and Nienor have...the way in which the dragon describes Turin and her response.'

Elimraen: 'It reminds me of Eowyn's defiance against the Witch-King :) Less successful of course, but I love her courage.'

Hollyberye: 'Great comparison--and I love the courage too, such a dire situation.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Elimraen!'

Viyoley: 'He is trying to show his power and threaten her first with words, from my point he is much like a snake...'

Hollyberye: 'Thought the hobbit Bilbo was more resistant!'

Hollyberye: 'All in all, this was an amazing scenee. Although terribly tragic.'

Byrcha: 'I pictured Glaurung with legs, but no wings -- not sure where I get the description though.'

Hollyberye: 'I imagined short, but powerful legs.'

Mornawen: 'Maybe like a gila monster, lol.'

Mornawen: 'I thought this whole episode was so eerie... the silence everywhere, the emptiness, and then the foul mists of the dragon.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes! actually the lower body is kind of what I visualized. The scene was extremely well depicted I felt.'

Mithmenelien: 'I liked the descriptions of Glaurung and his eyes in this chapter it really showed how connected Morgoth is to his worm.'

Hollyberye: 'YES!! my favorite part of the passage is how "he drew her eyes into his, and her will swooned." Really fine writing that perfectly captures the moment.'

Lilikate: 'I did love the fact he wiped all her memories, very Saga like :)'

Hollyberye: 'Her will swooned!!!! I love that. Terrible, but awesome writing. I want to put that in a song.'

Mithmenelien: 'great idea!'

Elimraen: 'That means that it has a chance to wake up again :)'

Viyoley: ':) I liked that part too'

Mornawen: 'Yes, Elim :)'

Hollyberye: 'but wake up to what ill news...no good.....'

Hollyberye: 'Mablung explores Nargothrond until he can stand it no longer and sees the evil shape of the dragon, but escapes the dragon, who is now sapped of power and who writhes and slinks like a great snake. But he turns toward Mablung and lets him know he is there and urges the elf to see what has become of his charge.'

Hollyberye: 'Mablung finds Nienor, like a statue, like a dreamer, and he despairs that they will not perish in the wilderness.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Thoughts, comments on Glaurungs' return to his hideout, his pronouncement on Mablung and Mablung's finding of Nienor?'

Mornawen: 'Night falls, and the stars come out, when Mablung finds Nienor... a hopeful sign?'

Elimraen: 'He's very dismissive of Mablung I thought. He could kill him but doesn't even bother trying.'

Byrcha: 'Glaurung/Morgoth can perhaps achieve more evil/despair by taunting Mablung than by simply killing him.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, he just taunts Mablung.'

Mithmenelien: 'I liked the the description of how all the fires in Gaurong had burned low and he was now very slow and out of power until he would rest.'

Viyoley: 'Poor Niënor can't hear him... she is still in a dream, or under magic poison?'

Elimraen: 'And I was surprised that he told Mablung exactly where to find Nienor - like, he's confident that his work is done.'

Mithmenelien: 'Like his speed before, comes from him having his fires inside of him and now that he had used it all up on his attack he moved slowly. it was a great description of the nature of a dragon.'

Mornawen: 'Nice conclusion, Mith.'

Hollyberye: 'Three of the original company find Mablung and Nienor and lead her long distances, the young woman nearly comatose. They find a place to rest, but are assailed by orcs. Nienor flees to the forest.'

Elimraen: 'Yes that's true about bringing more despair by keeping him alive, and Nienor too.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How do you explain Nienor's ability to outrun them all?'

Mornawen: 'She's tall and strong, and panicking...'

Hollyberye: 'Almost as if she were invested with super human powers by the dragon casting a spell.'

Hollyberye: 'Mablung returns to Doriath, shamed, but Melian tells him he did all he could and that he was matched against a power "too great indeed for all that now dwell in Middle-earth."'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does she mean the dragon or Morgoth himself?'

Viyoley: 'I feel like both... her words have two meanings...'

Mithmenelien: 'I think it means both, as in the will of Morgoth inside of the dragon.'

Lilikate: 'Melian, the voice of reason!'

Mornawen: 'Yes... kind of the chorus thing again, Melian knows that the only real hope comes from the West.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--the will of Morgoth is INSIDE the dragon. The dragon is his servant.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, does make me wonder about her conversations with Thingol -- I've been telling you for, what, a thousand years it was going to be really bad.'

Mornawen: '*laughs at Byrcha*'

Hollyberye: 'The end of the chapter comes with Mablung on a three year search seeking Nienor and Morwen.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why are these Elves extending themselves at such cost for the two women? Any other comments on the chapter?'

Hollyberye: 'I just think that a three year search is very excessive.'

Mornawen: 'Well, I gather that Mablung would be scouting, anyways, so trying to find the women fits in with that mission.'

Hollyberye: 'Okay, that's a fair point to make. And he feels responsible'

Mornawen: 'Yes.'

Mithmenelien: 'It might be because Melian has a feeling of the bad things that are sure to happen (later on in the book) if they are not found.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, although she can't know exactly how bad it will be, I don't think.'

Mithmenelien: 'Three years for an elf migh be like three days or weeks of us ;)'

Byrcha: 'Hah, good point. "We're not sure that the Necromancer is really Sauron, let's wait another couple decades and see what happens."'

Hollyberye: 'That's an excellent point, it is just a drop in the bucket of time.'

Mithmenelien: 'No she probably doesn't know exactly what will happen, maybe she just has a vauge feeling.'

Mithmenelien: 'I though that this was a very strong and powerful chapter.'

Hollyberye: 'Some superb scenes.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, and a wonderful depiction of Nienor.'

The gathered book club members agreed to continue along with one chapter only, following Andune Ensemble's Sunday afternoon performance, for the duration of the Weatherstock Concert Series.

Next session: Sunday 21 June 2015, following Andune Ensemble @4:15...Chapter XV: Nienor in Brethil (a very short chapter, so this will be a short session)

Newcomer's always welcome and you do not have to have read the material.
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session VIII: 21 June 2015, Chapter XV

Participants: Hollyberye, Lilikate, Elimraen, Byrcha, Viyoley, Lhinnthel, Mithmenelien, Corulin, and Bambik under the supervision of Viyoley

Chapter XV: Nienor in Brethil

Hollyberye: 'Good evening! Welcome to The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club...and Children of Hurin Support Group.'

Hollyberye: 'Nienor runs like one possessed, ripping her clothes away as she flees, until the madness passes in the evening. She swoons into a brake of ferns and sleeps. When Nienor awakes, she remembers nothing, life is a blank slate, she only holds a shadow of a fear.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Why would Tolkien have her rip all her clothes off? Is it symbolic of a rebirth?'

Lilikate: 'Noody Elf moment - hmmm hmm. Something of a symbolic innocence; a nude innocent elf in foliage?'

Elimraen: 'I eventually assumed it was something to do with new beginnings.'

Hollyberye: 'I did think it was symbolic--not just to show she was utterly mad.'

Viyoley: 'Rebirth reference seems likely to me.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, innocence. Or if one can be identified by one's clothes, it is a way of avoiding that.'

Lilikate: 'No mind-memories, no clothes... similar issue here.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--no way to identify her'

Lilikate: 'But holding a shadow of fear?'

Hollyberye: 'That holding a shadow of fear were words that jumped out to me from the text.'

Lilikate: 'So ripping her cloths and a shadow - Pure yet unpure?'

Lhinnthel: 'She must have felt pure terror to have fled that way - perhaps she ripped them off in her flight because they reminded her of her fear?'

Hollyberye: 'That's a very thoughtful idea, Lhinnthel--'

Lilikate: 'Is that what the author is aiming at?'

Mithmenelien: 'She has no memories, but she has an animal instinct and to an animal clothes are only in the way, and probably hindersome while running in a forest.'

Hollyberye: '--Stripping herself of the last vestiges of the Dragon encounter.'

Lilikate: 'For my commonsense brain it is still pure male fantasy though. That thought is hard to leave my brain.'

Lhinnthel: 'OOh, so she did it by instinct, Mithmenelien?'

Hollyberye: 'Lili, that is why I asked the question--because I sort of thought that except this is TOLKIEN. Anyhow I do think his motives were pure and literary and symbolic.'

Lilikate: 'I think there are elements of both. I mean a damsel in distress is a great plot device.'

Hollyberye: '--and you all just pointed out several levels of symbolism.'

Lilikate: 'But to rip your own clothes off?'

Hollyberye: 'Well, I wouldn't...but she was crazed.'

Mithmenelien: 'I imagined a cat or dog suddenly frighted and dressed in strange clothes and running would try to rip it off.'

Lilikate: 'You can be mad without having to disrobe.'

Hollyberye: 'I agree'

Byrcha: 'I think for the era it was less male-fantasy than if it were written today.'

Lilikate: 'Unless she felt heat maybe?'

Mithmenelien: 'But it probably had to do with a metamorphosis and a rebirth, too.'

Elimraen: 'Logically I don't understand it, but symbolically it makes more sense!'

Hollyberye: 'It could have even been part of the Dragon's mesmerization along with Byrcha's suggestion that clothes can identify one.'

Byrcha: 'Could of course be the Curse -- how else to have what follows?'

Lilikate: 'It's no more unusual than other strange happenings in this missive.'

Mithmenelien: 'Like you are born naked into the world and now she is born naked into this 'second life'.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mithmenelien.'

Hollyberye: 'Nienor continues her wild race, furtive and fast. Terrorized by a thunderstorm, she casts herself upon a mound, which happens to be the grave of Finduilas. It chanced that the woodmen of Brethil were hastening to shelter after am orc fight, and a bolt of brilliant lightening reveals to Turambar (Turin) the wraith of a slain maiden on the grave of Finduilas.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What emotions does this scene evoke for you?'

Hollyberye: 'I thought it was a shocking, vivid scene for Turin.'

Byrcha: 'Must be like Finduilas has come back to life, or the image thereof.'

Lilikate: 'I know what it is aiming to evoke. I get the symbolism'

Hollyberye: 'Yes'

Lilikate: 'The wraith of the Elf Maiden.'

Hollyberye: 'Another of the men sees it is a young woman and cries to Turambar, who casts his cloak around her and carries her to a hunter's lodge and makes her comfortable and warm.'

Lilikate: 'Covers her: Saving her modesty.'

Hollyberye: 'When Neinor opens her eyes and lights upon Turambar, a light comes in her face and she feels she has found something that she sought in the darkness.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is this a genetic, familial thing of seeing her brother at long last (unknowingly) or is it Morgoth sending her on this fateful route via Glaurung's mezmerizing her? What do you feel, as a reader, no matter how much you know of what is to come?'

Lilikate: 'Painting him to be chivalric in nature.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes he was very chivalrous and tender, Lili, well executed in the text.'

Mithmenelien: 'I thought it might be a shadow of a memory of her mother, he does look very much like her.'

Hollyberye: 'I personally quite like the idea of "recognition" based on their real connection.'

Elimraen: 'I thought some part of her recognised him as her brother, but the curse/darkness meant she couldn't understand what she was seeing.'

Hollyberye: 'Ah yes, he resembles Morwen! Good point.'

Lhinnthel: 'I also remembered how he was described as looking like his mother and felt it may have something to do with her feeling comfort when looking at him.'

Hollyberye: 'That could very well be.'

Bambik: 'A familial trait, she caught or there is something called "feel affectionate of a relative."'

Hollyberye: 'I admit I feel an affection for the idea of knowing but not understanding a connection--like when you encounter someone you think you might know.'

Elimraen: 'Yes :)'

Hollyberye: 'Also I don't think something so evil could cause good feelings.'

Lilikate: 'Or those meetings where you know you will be friends, without conversing too much before hand.'

Viyoley: 'Or a dark plan... who knows?'

Mithmenelien: 'it might be some inner instinct that she does not understand from him resembling Morwen, that turns into emotions.'

Hollyberye: 'I can see how Glaurung wiped her clean and sent her in that direction, but how could he make her trust him?'

Lilikate: 'Maybe he is just super Hot.'

Hollyberye: 'LOL yes'

Elimraen: 'Baha!'

Hollyberye: 'He evidently is :)'

Mithmenelien: 'He probably is, a lot of women seem to fall for him.'

Byrcha: 'He's a leader among non-leaders ... everyone seems to fall for him one way or another.'

Viyoley: 'This one has the same theme of old-fashioned movies, not many explanation but it's usual to accept this connection.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes to the earlier point, a man with great charisma. Although we are TOLD that and not so much SHOWN it as we are later with Aragorn.'

Byrcha: 'Aye (early-draftness again).'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Tolkien matured a lot as a writer.'

Hollyberye: 'Turambar is very gentle, trying to elicit who she and her kin are but does not pressure her. But he names her Niniel, Maid of Tears. She shakes her head but speaks the name and it is hers.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What connection do you see with her real name?'

Mithmenelien: 'It is a beautiful name and very close to her real name both in sound and meaning.'

Mithmenelien: 'She also seams to know that it's not her real name'

Hollyberye: 'Interesting I thought, that her real name meant mourning and this one means tears'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, I think it did mean mourning, the names are very similar, maybe because Turin and Morwen are similar, she gave the first name and he the second.'

Hollyberye: 'It is a bit uncanny, Mith.'

Hollyberye: 'The company of men takes Niniel through a beautiful, cool area around the falls, the Rainy Stair (Dimrost), but the young woman shudders with cold and falls into a sick fever.'

Hollyberye: 'We are given several well-written passages about Niniel's healing in the house of Brandir and learning to speak anew. Her heart is given to him. Niniel asks Turambar his name--she has been inquiring a great deal of the names of things--and she listens for "an echo" asks what it means.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. In explaining his name, Turambar said he had his darkness too and fled for many years, his story alike to hers, at least symbolically. "From the green-mound she came--is this a sign and how shall I read it"--put yourself in his shoes, and what would you think?'

Byrcha: 'He wants a second chance, since he botched it with Finduilas. But, again, the hidden/changed-name thing!!!'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that if he would have told her his real name she might have heard and echo of it in her mind.'

Byrcha: 'May not have mattered since her memory is gone, but what if he had said 'Hi, I'm Turin.''

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, I agree with Mith! I would like to know what her reaction would have been hearing his real name from him, at that moment.'

Hollyberye: 'I don't know...'

Elimraen: 'He has a sort of second chance after he let down Finduilas so badly. I thought Turambar meant Master of Doom/Fate though?'

Hollyberye: 'I think he was afraid of damaging someone else, after so many have died who were his allies and friends. But being human, hope DOES spring eternal even in the most troubled and doomed. And he thought he could hide from his fate.'

Mithmenelien: 'On Finduilas' grave, whom he saw as a sister, he now finds his actual sister and his first thought is she was Finduilas' spirit.'

Hollyberye: 'I can hardly blame him for seeking solace and happiness.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mith, it seems like a Portent, a sign to him of a second chance. He felt responsible for Finduuilas's death and now he has a new chance.'

Hollyberye: 'I don't want to read too much into it.'

Lhinnthel: 'How could he not take it as a sign to find her lying on the grave? It must have been quite shocking!'

Hollyberye: 'Yet this book lends itself to that wink. Yes, VERY shocking, agreed.'

Hollyberye: 'In the spring of the year our celibate hero asks for her hand in marriage. Brandir counsels her to wait, saying there is a shadow on this man.'

Hollyberye: 'Then Nieniel says there is a shadow on the man but he escaped from it as she had, and says he is worthy of love, and was once one of the greatest captains.'

Lilikate: 'This book should be titled Good Advice Ignored.'

Lhinnthel: 'Ha!'

Mithmenelien: 'indeed!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes indeed'

Byrcha: 'haha, yes'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Does this put you in mind of other gracious things spoken by Tolkien heroines?'

Hollyberye: 'I just think it is lovely and it reminds me of our Arwen. I can't help but like the way she expresses herself.'

Hollyberye: 'I hope this isn't too mature for Bambik'wink'

Viyoley: 'His ears are covered, no worries.'

Hollyberye: 'Thanks Vi :)'

Hollyberye: 'We learn that Dorlas has told the fair maiden far more than Brandir wishes...As Brandir explains more about Turambar, the stance he takes is that such a one will no doubt want to go back to war ere long...and how long will Nieniel endure it? Brandir also speaks of his forebodings that the Shadow shall have mastery.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Do you sympathize or are you frustrated by Niniel's repsonse?'

Byrcha: 'Sympathize. she has found a kindred spirit, they've both been through darkness and think it is behind them.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I do too, Byrcha.'

Mithmenelien: 'yes, I think her reaction is only natural'

Viyoley: 'Agreed, Byrcha.'

Hollyberye: 'After another year, Turambar grows impatient and promises that if they wed he will never go to war again unless to defend her...and so "they dwelt in happiness."'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Comments on this turn of events, please.'

Byrcha: '(they *gave* them a house!!)'

Hollyberye: 'hahah--yes they did'

Hollyberye: 'Setting aside what we know and they do not know, I for one am happy that each of them has this tiny slice of contentment and love in their otherwise tragic lives.'

Viyoley: 'So quick in closing, jumped to another year with a promise... and Nieniel survived!'

Hollyberye: 'To me it has a very different feel than Oedipus, for instance.'

Elimraen: 'Yes, because both of them are innocents in it really sad'

Hollyberye: 'Yes a terrible tragedy of trickery'

Hollyberye: 'For once we cannot fault Turin for a knowingly prideful decision.'

Mithmenelien: 'It does have a feel of Greek tragedy though.'

Viyoley: 'Nice points, didn't think of that reference'

Hollyberye: 'Yes very strong feel of Greek tragedy.'

Byrcha: 'Indeed'

Lhinnthel: 'It is very tragic!'

Hollyberye: 'But so much of what he did before was his own bad choices and this time, it was all done in innocence, at least I feel.'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments on this turn of events or the chapter as a whole?'

Byrcha: 'True, but it is indirectly from his earlier choices (e.g., waiting twenty years before going home).'

Hollyberye: 'Okay that is a very valid point--he would have recognized her in that case.'

Mithmenelien: 'In Greek mythology, the gods punishes Hybris, and he did name himself, something that meant master of fate I think, so there is a little similarity there, too.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, thanks Mith--that is useful to know.'

Byrcha: 'And he made an unwise choice with the dragon, so things with Finduilas might have gone differently -- he might have been married to her by the time Nienor showed up.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I guess I was feeling a bit too forgiving of Turin with this chapter.

Elimraen: 'I always am Holly :p

Hollyberye: 'Yes, me as well. I hadn't thought to think of all the steps that led him to this point.'

Byrcha: 'No, when you just read it to this point I agree that he is sympathetic here (much more so than earlier).'

Mithmenelien: 'But he was more human in this chapter though.'

Lilikate: 'I am sympathetic to the pairing.'

Viyoley: 'Turin's charm affect us from the book, I think here is the point.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Lilikate, Tolkien really wrote it to elicit sympathy I think.'

Elimraen: 'If you just take this chapter on its own, you can't blame either of them for any of it, but it's true that his previous choices could have made things turn out completely differently.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I had to be reminded of that. But I especially feel empathy for her.'

Mithmenelien: 'Also since she seemed to have a shadow of her memory upon hearing her father's name, it is too bad that Brandir did not mention Turin's name, but only called him son of Hurin.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought of that too--Brandir said so very much--hearing his real name might have resonated with her.'

Hollyberye: 'Then again, Glaurong may have directed somehow that she love Turin regardless and not know who he was.'

Hollyberye: 'Unless there are any more comments, I have to thank you very much!'

Mithmenelien: 'I just have to say that I loved the description of Nienor's delight in learning the words again!'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Mith, I did too! Learning everything again.'

Mithmenelien: 'Since she had to learn to speak again, she probably didn't remember what clothes were for..like a baby doesn't automatically know that it should wear clothes.'

After many expressions of appreciation and best wishes, the group went their separate ways.

We will meet next Sunday (28 June 2015) at the Bird and Baby Inn and via /lmbbookclub--following the Andune Ensemble performance, about 4:15 PM server time, to discuss Chapter XVI: The Coming of Glaurung.

Newcomers and unprepared listeners are always welcome to join!
Even chaperoned Hobbit tweens, like Bambik.
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

The Lonely Mountain Band Book Club
The Children of Hurin by J.R.R. Tolkien
Session IX, 28 June 2015, Chapter XVI: The Coming of Glaurung


Participants: Hollyberye, Lilikate; Morfindiel, Corulin, Mornawen, Lhinnthel, Byrcha, Bavelbella, Mithmenelien, Anthemisa at /lmbbookclub

Chapter XVI: The Coming of Glaurung

Hollyberye: 'We are told that Glaurung rules as a Dragon-King over Nargothrond and begins to target the remnant of free men in Brethil.'

Hollyberye: 'It is Turin's third year dwelling with the woodsmen, under the name of Turambar. The counsels of Brandir are in vain and Turambar feels he is faced with but two choices: sit until found or go forth in battle. But initially he heeds Nieniel and does not go forth.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Dorlas comes to Turin with his wounds and compels him to go forth now, which he does with his sword Gurthang. Why does this hearten the men? Is it convincing that they rallied around the "terror of the black sword" when he only used it at his arrival in Brethiel, then laid it down?'

Byrcha: 'it's convincing in general that he would inspire them by going back into battle, though the time-gaps throughout the story are troublesome.'

Hollyberye: 'They were greatly heartened and were a force of many hundreds--that was somewhat surprising to me.'

Hollyberye: 'Brandir had made him put the sword away--but I suppose word of its legendary aspects was known and spread. Yes Byrcha, the time gaps are troublesome, good word for that.'

Mithmenelien: 'Maybe because they already knew about the legend about the black sword from Turin's time in Nargothrond and the legend of it is so strong.'

Mornawen: 'Well, it says the orcs' tactics changed... they were becoming more aggressive. So hiding wasn't working.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes they were smarter/more cunning, so more trouble.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, this chapter seemed to jump ahead quite a bit, so the chapter didn't hold me as much.'

Hollyberye: 'The initial routing of orcs causes Glaurung to pause and ponder. Nieniel is comforted and rejoices in her husband's renown.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Turambar essentially assumes control with no one any longer heeding Brandir. Do you think it is plausible that Brandir really accepts this without demur?'

Byrcha: 'It is also troublesome. Most rulers aren't used to just giving up power.'

Mornawen: 'I got the sense he was a leader, not a ruler, necessarily.'

Mornawen: 'And he was insecure about his disability.'

Lhinnthel: 'It does seem questionable - he is the ruler for a reason and to give it up so readily? Hard to accept, for me!'

Byrcha: 'Ah, non-hereditary. Still, not likely to go over too well.'

Lhinnthel: 'Ah, that makes sense.'

Hollyberye: 'He is an unusual type in Tolkien's world I feel--most inept or bad rulers/leaders hang on for all it's worth to their role.'

Mithmenelien: 'It fits with the feeling I got about Brandir's personality and with Turin's compelling charisma.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, Mith, that is true.'

Hollyberye: 'I am not saying he was bad. Just that he was the leader and capitulated so easily.'

Mornawen: 'It reminds me of King Orodreth, in Nargothrond, and how Turin won him over.'

Hollyberye: 'Good point Mornawen--Turin won him over and he was a more clear leader of all.'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes he was just not a strong minded sort of person.'

Byrcha: 'Aye, unusual. not like say Theoden's relationship to Aragorn.'

Hollyberye: 'How he became leader would have been an nteresting backstory.'

Mornawen: 'Oooh, yes.'

Hollyberye: 'Perhaps in a gentler, calmer time, this insulated group of woodsmen just needed a wise hand.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. We are told Nieniel conceives in the spring--and is suddenly pale and wan, and ALL HER HAPPINESS IS DIMMED. Is this pure literary license because it is an incestual relationship? The literary license is an euphemism, used to denote the distortion of fact.'

Byrcha: 'Yeah, I kinda read it as that in a foreshadowing sense (reminder to the reader).'

Hollyberye: 'Most expectant women who love their partner are joyful no matter how ill they feel.'

Mornawen: 'I wasn't clear if that was just normal early-pregnancy blues...'

Hollyberye: '...and later they say she is only two months pregnant.'

Hollyberye: 'Well the pale and wan is normal.'

Byrcha: 'The happiness-dimming is the kicker.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, I took it as morning sickness, but it could also very well be foreshadowing!'

Hollyberye: 'To say her happiness is dimmed -- I felt Tolkien was using that as a way of pointing to the true nature of the relationship. This is an ill-fated development.'

Lhinnthel: 'Indeed.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, since we as readers know about the incest.'

Mithmenelien: 'It might be her unconsciousness speaking to her.'

Mornawen: 'But also, here she is expecting, and now Turin is venturing out into danger.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, exactly! That is a better way to put it Mornawen.'

Hollyberye: 'News reaches the woodsmen that many fires have been lit by the dragon and the stench is scarcely to be endured. Turambar says that these tidings give him hope because the dragon is "going [traveling] straight."'

Hollyberye: 'Tolkien describes a gorge through which Glaurung is headed and describes Turin's cunning strategy. He advises the men to flee if Glaurung comes near, for he believes the dragon would not stay--his treasure is in Nargothrond.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. What do you think of this strategy? Does Turin really understand the nature of this dragon? Turin's words to the men indicate that he believes this dragon can be conquered and why. What do you think of the explanation? Would you be convinced if you were one of the Brethil woodsmen?'

Mornawen: 'Probably not. ;)'

Byrcha: 'He's reasonably convincing, i.e.. invoking the Dwarves' story. But as one of the locals, I'd want a backup plan.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think that Turin is convinced that he is capable of defeating anything, it's the pride in him.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes. I agree Turin is convinced, but I think his strategy could be hard to accept.'

Byrcha: 'In a way though, given their reliance on him, he's almost forced to try it? There's no hiding from a dragon.'

Hollyberye: 'Though many a man follows a beloved leader blindly. Yes, Byrcha, good point.'

Mornawen: 'Yes, he's going to try. He's constitutionally unable to just stand by.'

Mithmenelien: 'They don't really have any other choice then to trust him and they do trust him.'

Mornawen: 'And he does tell them to run away, if he fails.'

Byrcha: 'Yeah, the locals get a pass on this one. Of course they want to trust the hero -- and he's proven heroic again just before this.'

Hollyberye: 'Turin concludes his rallying of the men by sweeping Gurthang into the air and it seems that a flame leaps from his hand many feet into the air...they cry "The Black Thorn of Brethil!"'

Hollyberye: 'Turin cries, "I go now to seek the belly of Glaurong" and he calls for a few strong armed and stronger hearted men.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Would you respond to this summons were you one of the Brethil woodsmen?'

Hollyberye: 'To me it was more compelling than anything he said before.'

Anthemisa: 'I would!'

Mornawen: '*cheers for Anthemisa*'

Hollyberye: 'Reminds me of other leaders in Tolkien with their rallying cries. Theoden on the Red Dawn Day. Aragorn--Men of the West!!!! And a bit of magic, to boot.'

Anthemisa: 'Yes!'

Mornawen: 'Oddly enough, it reminded me of Gandalf at the Council, advising this crazy quest to send the ring to Mount Doom.'

Hollyberye: 'Nice analogy Mornawen, yes. Such a hopeless mission--but always some hope.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Dorlas completely and publicly dismisses Brandir. What do you think of Hunther's reaction, who defends Brandir and also agrees to go with Turambar and Dorlas?'

Mithmenelien: 'I found that leaping flame interesting, any idea what it was, maybe some some remnant of its origin.'

Hollyberye: 'I thought the magic of the Elves!!! Investing flame into a sword. But also the sword wants to meet its destiny. And slay the dragon! Those were the kind of things to cross my mind.'

Mornawen: 'The sword's destiny, ah yes, Holly.'

Hollyberye: 'The Elves put flame and fire into Narchuil I believe, the Flame of the West.'

Hollyberye: 'Nieniel begs her husband to stay but he says they are hemmed in. The three men go forth to a grim place, with the reek of burning and the stench sickening them as they come closer.'

Hollyberye: 'The narrative returns to Nieniel and Brandir, who have a reproachful discussion, in which she says her dread is beyond enduring. Nieniel says she must go forth to hear tidings of her husband. "Why tarry here?" she asks.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. How is it that a great company agrees to go forth with Nieniel? And what do you think of their subsequent regret by nightfall?'

Byrcha: 'Aye, a bit odd. They can't bear waiting for news, but don't actually want to be too close to the news.'

Lhinnthel: 'Well, there is very little written of their time there, but the people must admire her in order for her words to inspire them enough to follow.'

Hollyberye: 'While I found it somewhat hard to believe that so many followed her, their regret later was completely credible.'

Mithmenelien: 'Their family is very good at leading men it seems.'

Mornawen: 'I think it would be hard to just sit and wait for news, so they were swept up by her--yes, Lhinn.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, Mith, YES, you reminded me who she is! We didn't see much of her growing up but yes that House--a leader all of them. Strong minded, all of them.'

Mornawen: 'Hurin's daughter, yes Mith.'

Byrcha: 'Yes. And she gives a bit of hero-speech herself.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, that is true.'

Hollyberye: 'I would have liked more story around her growing up years, although the hardship of being under the Easterlings was grim.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh and the regret by nightfall--how often do we feel that way, after choosing a course of action?!'

Mithmenelien: 'About the men, yes, they where caught by the heat of the moment and then suddenly realized the actual reality.'

Hollyberye: 'At the conclusion we see Brandir, who stayed behind, relinquish his titular leadership in an embittered way and state that nothing is left him but his love for Niniel. He decides to follow her.'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Is Brandir's devotion to Niniel that of a father to a daughter, or something else? What do you think of the image of his equipping a sword and his crutch, going forth alone?'

Mornawen: 'Pathetic.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think he loves her, but as a man not as a father.'

Lhinnthel: 'I thought it a bit ridiculous, to be honest. I suppose love will do that to you at times, even unrequited.'

Byrcha: 'Yeah, tricksy one there. Oh, right, NOW he's heroic.'

Hollyberye: 'Well initially he really took to her.'

Lhinnthel: 'I do not think he loves her in a fatherly way.'

Anthemisa: 'He feels like he should defend her, I "want" to think of that as father-like act.'

Hollyberye: 'You don't Lhinn?'

Mornawen: 'I thought he fell in love with her, but her heart was given to Turambar.'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes, exactly, Mornawen.'

Hollyberye: 'I feel Tolkien is nebulous on this point.'

Lhinnthel: 'At least that is how I took it!'

Mithmenelien: 'That last part of the chapter was very sad.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I put the point in because I felt it could be argued either way. Yes, very sad.'

Lhinnthel: 'I will have to reread it, it never crossed my mind it could be in a fatherly way.'

Hollyberye: 'For some reason I thought that initially--but then I wondered. So I asked what you all think :)'

Lhinnthel: 'Yes! I like hearing the other perspective!'

Hollyberye: 'Me, too, that is what makes a book club discussion wonderful. :D'

Mithmenelien: 'Yes, that is the best part of the bookclub :D'

Hollyberye: 'Q. We have not discussed the illustrations of Alan Lee in the last few sessions. This chapter is adorned with a small black and white sketch on the first page, and a large fiery one with Glaurung's evil snake head lunging through the blaze. What did you think of these sketches and do you know what the first one illustrates?'

Mornawen: 'I wondered about that sketch-- it looks like some people gathered.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, I couldn't make it out enough to tell.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, I saw tiny people but no dragon.'

Hollyberye: 'And I confess I did not research online to get a list of the sketches, Alan Lee might have named them. In the orange fiery one we see Glaurong.'

Mithmenelien: 'I think they have shields and sword so it's probably one of the groups going to fight.'

Hollyberye: 'Oh, maybe it is the three! I will look up the sketches.'

Mornawen: 'Maybe Dorlas' company?'

Hollyberye: 'Yes that could be as it is the START of the chapter.'

Byrcha: 'Yes, another thought ...
'
Lhinnthel: 'Maybe, but I see at least 9 or 10 people with shields, etc. Perhaps the ones coming to look for them?'

Hollyberye: 'Q. Any other comments?'

Byrcha: 'I wanted to quibble about Turin's strategy ... the dragon sleeps during the day, but they wait until nightfall to try and creep into position ... when the dragon would be waking up! Better to have done their sneaking earlier!'

Mornawen: 'Haha, yes Byrcha!'

Mornawen: 'Maybe Dorlas wouldn't have wimped out in daylight.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes Byrcha, plus Tolkien spends some time on their strategy. Curious.'

Byrcha: 'The kind of thing which proper revision/editing might have cleaned up, were it a true final work.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes indeed.'

Mithmenelien: 'The picture of the dragon is very impressive, and with that trail of fire he is leaving behind him.'

Anthemisa: 'Very pretty sketches... such a talent.'

Hollyberye: 'Yes, very effective drawing is that one!!!'

Byrcha: 'Aye, the color plate of the dragon is quite well done.'

Hollyberye: 'Any other comments on this chapter, my good friends?'

Byrcha: 'Hehe, the title of the next chapter kinda foreshadows things :P'

Hollyberye: 'Yes--SURPRISE!'

After many expressions of thanks and how much they were getting out of the book club to enhance reading this book, the participants departed to slay orcs and bake pies.

We will meet next Sunday, July 5th, after Andune Ensemble (about 4:15) to discuss Chapter XVII: The Death of Glaurung.
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Sorry I couldn't make it yesterday sad I'm also out next week - but, I'll be in Oxford, and we're planning on visiting the real Bird & Baby/Eagle and Child! So I'll be raising a glass to LMB Book Club while I'm there of course <3


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Elimraen wrote:
Sorry I couldn't make it yesterday sad I'm also out next week - but, I'll be in Oxford, and we're planning on visiting the real Bird & Baby/Eagle and Child! So I'll be raising a glass to LMB Book Club while I'm there of course <3


We missed you, Elimraen! And we will miss you next Sunday--but will expect a full report on the ambiance at the Bird & Baby and any Turin/Tolkien/Glaurung ghostly sightings, please :).
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I'll be sure to take many notes and photos! =D


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I am in the Eagle & Child, in the Rabbit Room! They just played I See Fire! So much hard to contain geek glee! So many exclamation marks!


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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Elimraen wrote:
I am in the Eagle & Child, in the Rabbit Room! They just played I See Fire! So much hard to contain geek glee! So many exclamation marks!


Marvelous! I wish I were there.
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re: LMB Book Club--The Children of Hurin

Elimraen wrote:
I am in the Eagle & Child, in the Rabbit Room! They just played I See Fire! So much hard to contain geek glee! So many exclamation marks!


Marvelous! I wish I were there.
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