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Lennidhren
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re: LMB Book Club, October 22: Silmarillion ch. 12

Hey, it's book club day and for once I have no conflicts! And I have questions to discuss!

Chapter 12: Of Men

(1) How do the Years of the Sun contrast with the twilight that preceded them? For instance, "beneath the new sun Beleriand grew green and fair" - what must it have been like before the sun & moon?

(2) Eldar and their names for things! Look at the list of names they gave to Men when the second children of Iluvatar showed up. Consider also the elves' names for dwarves, "Naugrim" meaning the Stunted Ones. What insight does this give us about the elves?

(3) What is the relation of Men to the Valar, and how does that compare or fit with the pantheons of gods worshipped by various RL ancient cultures?

(4) The Silmarillion is, of course, from an elven perspective. How does that affect this chapter's discussion of the mortality of Men?


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Lennidhren
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re: LMB Book Club, October 22: Silmarillion ch. 12

Great discussion today, joined by several friends from outside LMB! Here is the chat log:

Also, it just occurred to me that we never did readalouds this week! Ah, well...there was still plenty of discussion going on long past the end of my prepared topics!

### Chat Log: OW/Books 10/22 11:38 AM ###
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '"cause Lenn was using the fact that I wake up to watch My L-new episodes of certain programs.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It is convenient that way!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Well, it's always great having you here.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: '*wave* I decided maybe I'd lurk around your book club chat a bit. ;)'
Your friend, Ashenwoods, has come online.
[To lmbbookclub] 'Greetings Etaoin! Glad to have you!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Welcome Etaoin!'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'hello Etaoin! I do the same =P'
[To lmbbookclub] '*passes around oatmeal cookies with that odd frosting made from barley...how that works I'll never know*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Mmmm... but they're tasty though.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed!'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'There are better uses for barley.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'It's hard for me to resist a Silmarillion discussion.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, there are certainly uses that make more sense than frosting...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Why not just butter and honey?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes Etaoin! We have had some good discussions thus far in the Silm, too'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In fact....hm....let me see if I can figure out how to open up that section of the LMB forums for non kin to access, because we've got chat logs of some of the past week's discussions posted there that you folks new to book club might enjoy'
[To lmbbookclub] '...Nah, looks like that's a function only Harp has access to. I'll see if she can change that forum to public access, though.'
Your friend, Kaleigh, has gone offline.
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'brb, getting lunch'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well - we should probably go ahead and get started.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: '*mourns for the loss of Captain Cowbell.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So, let us begin as usual with general thoughts on this chapter! Who has a comment to start us out?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, very quiet... :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, we'll go ahead with the first discussion topic...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'But I'm not quiet!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah! Did you have a comment then, Gaia'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I am here to listen, and learn. :)'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Sorry, haven't actually read it recently, just saw you mention it in ales and tales xchannel.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think the questions will get at the chapter. The biggest thing for me was the names for men and the mortality/immortality of elves.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes, both of those struck me as well so they are among the topics today :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, topic 1:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(1) How do the Years of the Sun contrast with the twilight that preceded them? For instance, "beneath the new sun Beleriand grew green and fair" - what must it have been like before the sun & moon?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I loved how this chapter clearly equates man with the sun and elves with the stars.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed! We so often see those connections of elves with stars...'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'yes , i almost didn't realize that men was of the sun'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In their love of Varda, who is associated with the stars, for one'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye, the word Eldar means of the stars.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And in their awakening under the stars when t hey first appeared in Middle-earth'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, it has to do with the time of awakening. The elves woke to starlight. Men awoke to the sun.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Some o' them names, though...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It adds an interesting dimension to elves, that they should remember a time before the sun'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Whereas to men, such a time of twilight/starlight must seem totally mythical'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, and remember it fondly.'
Your friend, Finaor, has gone offline.
[To lmbbookclub] 'But when it talks about Beleriand turning green under the sun - what was its beauty of the twilight like?'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I love twilight.....Likely my favorite time o' day.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I know... All the hidden seeds of Yavanna suddenly come to life. It must have been amazingly beautiful.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'The stars, being unchanging, are a proper metaphor for elves, I would think. The sun, rising to brightness that eclipses starlight, might be seen as a metaphor for men. Yet the stars remain, even when the sun obscures them.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think the key difference was a lack of growth.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Nice point, Melanie!'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Agreed.'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'yes indeed'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, I like that contrast'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'And we see that mirrored in the current Elven societies.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Explain that Etaoin. An intriguing thought.'
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[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'The 3 rings cause a preservation of what is, sort of suspending the realms they protect in time.'
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[To lmbbookclub] 'It makes sense with the longevity of elves, I think'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They'd be more inclined to see the consistency of things than to keep track of the quick changes that happen in the seasons under the age of the sun'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I think those greater rings have powers far surpassing mere preservation. It is the reluctance of the bearers to reveal that power by usage that restricts them to mere preservation of that which they have wrought, yes?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I also liked the description of elven "mortality" that they burn themselves up from within. Much like stars.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Interesting too that the age of the sun seems to equal shorter *years*, or cycles or whatever, than in the age before it'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, they also increase their bearer's innate abilities. But their primary power is preservation.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'The 3 Elven rings, anyway.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'At this point in the story, the rings are not part of it though.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'So we have a dichotomy btween Elves who love the unchanging stars, have a special gift for memory and whose powers often lie in the preservation of things...'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'And Men who love the sun, and growth and who are the race that will inherit the earth and decide its future.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Does the sun, then, precede the Two Trees?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: '(Sorry to arrive so late) The dichotomy is finely shown in the brothers Elros and Elrond.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '(Hi-de-ho, Khizli! Glad you could make it!)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's odd, given that the world was made for the elves first, but that it passes to men so early in the history.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Well met, Khizli.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The sun is created after Melkor destroys the two trees with the help of Ungoliant, Melanie.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Thank you. And no, the Sun-Vessel and Moon-vessel were filled with the light of the Two Trees, so they are of later date.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Agreed. Kinda makes me see Finaor's side o' things.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Then, was not the light of the Two much like an unchanging sun, bringing growth?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Khizli, the fruit of Laurelin and the last leaf of Telperion.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The light of the two trees didn't reach Beleriand as I understand it. It only lit up Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'The light of the two trees did not reach Middle-earth'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Yes, of course, but I speak of the elves, not of men.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, the Elves who went to Valinor did indeed love the light and were strengthened by it, but a great many Elves never saw it.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'There were many elves in Beleriand. Elwe's people were there as were the Nandor. And of course, Feanor and his people left Valinor just as the trees were destroyed.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'And there was growth in Valinor, but the seeds in Beleriand slept until there was a sun.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye - it's mentioned that the elves who had seen the light of the trees were about as far above the dark elves who stayed behind in Middle-earth as those elves were above the mortal men. Except for the Sindar in Doriath under Thingol, who were more noble than your average dark elf, I guess.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The gardens of Lorien were supposedly very beautiful. The ones in Valinor, not the Lothlorien copy.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I am of the opinion that elves were not lovers of night only, but loved light as well, and growth and new things.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I agree. Yavanna is very popular with the elves.'
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[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'And Men do not know the Valar as the elves do.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Still, they were inclined to stagnation and preservation. Which is what makes Feanor stand out so much - he was burning with a creative spirit.'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'yes no valar to come to men, to take them west or guide them'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I don't know if 'stagnation' is the right word though. Stability, perhaps. And what of the Teleri who made beautiful ships.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I prefer to think of it not as stagnation, but as a creativity not hurried by urgency.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, an interesting though about Feanor, Khizli. I wonder if among men he would have seemed as unusual as h did to the elves around him?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'True, Eijah. Though Ulmo takes an interest in men.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'it is the short lives of my people that make us so driven.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'That was more or less my point, yes. I think that, among men, he would have been considered gifted (and impetuous!), but not exceptional to the same degree.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Melanie. I see it as you do.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Indeed.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'what is this, book club?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Feanor did seem unique.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye and welcome, Godwineson.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed, Godwineson! Welcome!'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'In the matter of Feanor, I believe his frightening ambition drove him to act.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'And rashly... It's as if he knew his time would be short. Like men.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Ambition is something I have seen in no other elf but he.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'It occuers to me that Mankind, like the Sun, rises to the occasion (to equal anyone), whereas the Elder Kindred maintains their eternal high levels of grace and being.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Well. . .there were others. It didn' typically end well, though'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '(Hi-de-ho, Godwineson!)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, speaking of what this chapter says about Elves' spirits eventually burning out their bodies (more or less) - we know that Feanor has a fierier spirit than any other elves, so perhaps he does indeed feel, well, more mortal than most elves. Knowing he would burn out sooner anyway...'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Eol had ambition.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Good point.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Sons of Feanor as well, and possibly the Gwaith i Mirdain'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Like his mother, Miriel.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'And Turgon.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I actually never thought of thgat before.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Galadriel was certainly tempted by it'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think it's safe to say though that almost all Elves who felt such driving force behind their actions had been to Valinor and benefitted from the Two trees.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Feanor's father was the first of all elves to die to violence. His mother was the first to die of her own volition. He has an interesting relationship with death for an elf.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'He does, indeed.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Very weird.....'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Another comparison that occurs to me. It is said that, of all the Istari, Saruman looked most to Mankind. And he is the most ambitious, too. Still, the Fire opposed him, for once.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'For Elves were not given the same gift of mastery over their fates that Men were.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I wonder if the consuming of elven spirit is not a moot point. Most who perish, do so from battle, yes? And Cirdan is so very old...'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'It is indeed something that would not happen for many ages.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Has any elf been known to die of aging?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The implication seems to be that farther in the future elves are faded from that "aging"'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Hmmm. I don't know about that Etaoin. They seem more in control then men to me as they have longer to live'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'and again I pass through the ribbon on the race, missing no gates, and am told I lost. And there are hordes of people on the track'
[To lmbbookclub] 'To the "pixies" and such that men in more recent ages would think of as elves'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Fading seems to be that burning from the inside, but what we see in LOTR is that the fading causes the elves to sail west, not die.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Ultimately they would become creature of pure spirit.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'That may have more to do with the withdrawal of the Valar from Middle Earth.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'And nostalgia for Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'I would have loved to hear Celebrimbor's thoughts on the elements of the Three. Given the role and the powers of the Ring of Fire (inspiration, preservation), it's very different from the Fire that burned out Feanor and so many others.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I think that was TOlkien's expllantion for why the elves are seldom to be found these days.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Don't forget what Gandalf said about Frodo, that he would become for those who had eyes to see, like a glass filled with light. Perhaps that is what the 'burning out from within' is -supposed- to be like?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, only Elves' souls wear out their bodies.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Interesting, Godwineson.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'It may also have to do with what becomes of a 'good' wraith.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'The ideas is that their souls are so much stronger than their bodies than any other race.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Only because the curse of Men, who fell into Shadow, causes them to die before that happens?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'No, the souls of Men are not strong enough to overcome their bodies.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Citation?'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Perhaps the bodies of men are too weak to contain their souls very long!'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod a Andreth.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'My citation is the Athrabeth, Etaoin'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Ooh... Good point, Melanie.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Your citation for what?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The firstborn and the followers are of the same flesh and spirit, but different fates. That is why Men all die. But it was not always meant to be so.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'And what becomes of men when they die?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'they are the same flesh and spirit, but in different strengths, which is why Men fell.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Halls of Mandos'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed, what becomes of them? The elves don't know for sure!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The chapter says that the elves don't know what becomes of men.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'They pass beyond Arda, though at the time of the Athrabeth, no one was sure.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'And do we not live there eternally?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This in fact ties in to my fourth topic - I'm just going to go ahead and post it as we continue on this line of discussion:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(4) The Silmarillion is, of course, from an elven perspective. How does that affect this chapter's discussion of the mortality of Men?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Halls of Mandos are just until the Second Music.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'If men's spirits go to the halls of Mandos, the elves assume it's in a different wing - implying they never see each other there'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Mostly, Lennidhren. Was "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" written by the Elder Kindred as well? I am honestly not sure either way.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Good question, Khizli'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The elves don't know and only guess. In the Athrabeth, we are given a clearer picture, and it was supposed to be in the Silmarillion, but was left out (grr)'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'And the same goes for the Akkalabeth.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The overall frame story is that the Silmarillion is translated "from the Elvish" by Bilbo while at Rivendell, right?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Akkalabeth is supposedly in Quenya, so it would be written from an elven perspective.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But those later parts like the Akkalabeth and Of the Rings could have been penned by Bilbo himself to add to the elvish legends'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah! In Quenya, thus elven, that's good to know'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Downfall of Numenor? Would not that have been written by survivors from the Seven Ships?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It could be that Bilbo wrote it down and it was oral history before then.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That's a likely scenario, Gaiagil'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In which case it's still sort of from the elven perspective - depending on how much Bilbo edited it from a hobbit perspective as he wrote!'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Since we're talking so much about the Athrabeth... it gives some fascinasting insights into how Elves and Men viewed each others lifespans...'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Men, we know, were often jealous of Elves, thinking that Elves truly live forever.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'However, Finrod reveals that this is not what the Elves have believed.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I cannot imagine that elves would have a great deal of patience for men. Such short lives must make them seem no more than dogs, however beloved this one or that might be.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The Athrabeth is helpful there, too, for the beginning of the conversation is about Andreth, an old woman, bitter about her one true love who was an Elf, and Finrod revealing that that elf will never marry, because she is his one true love.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'The Elves only truly live forever in the Undying Lands. Outside of Aman, the Noldor were quite mortal, although from violence of one kind or another. It's also telling, I think, that the Noldor, of all the Elder Kindred, burned most with the fire of (human-like) emotions such as vengeance, lust and ambition.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'As far as the Elves had known, they may have extraordinarily long lives, but they thought that those lives would come to a complete end, that they would cease to exist at the time that Arda was destroyed. But they knew that Men's spirits went outside the bounds of Arda (though not whither) and so would outlast Arda.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Each thought the other was, in their own way, immortal.'
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[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Also, the spirits of the Seven People (of the Seven Fathers) will return to Mahal (that is Aule)'s bosom. I really wish there was more known about that, since it's quite unique compared to all other people.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Melanie, I don't think that would work with Tolkien's views on god.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'First? or solely? It is an important distinction to me.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'First. He always saw men coming after. And Aule's creation of the dwarves received his blessing as well.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'But they had to wait until the Eldar had the world for a time before they could emerge.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: '((Perhaps Elves would be consistent with religious notions in this respect if they were viewed as angels rather than men))'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'True. Still they are apart, unto the end of times. Or especially at the end of times in the current context.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'That's an interesting question partticularly because Tolkien hints in his other writings that Elves were never supposed to be taken to Valinor, but were meant to rule over Middle-earth.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think the concept of Angels is more for the Valar. The way Tolkien describes them gives that impression especially the fallen angel, Melkor.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, the Valar are more or less the equivalent of angels'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I see.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think Tolkien viewed Elves as a version of unfallen Men.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Etaoin, that's true.. The Valar were being overprotective.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sort of a combination of angels and pagan pantheons of gods. Which in fact, leads to another discussion topic of mine. :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] '(3) What is the relation of Men to the Valar, and how does that compare or fit with the pantheons of gods worshipped by various RL ancient cultures?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I don't know about elves being unfallen. Feanor and the Noldor are cursed for their rebellion.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'And the doom of the Noldor is reminiscent of the fall of Adam and Eve.'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'it's odd though the valar i known to many elves, man have almost no knowledge'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I had always thought of Valar as gods, under the One God.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I agree, Melanie'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: '3) I think that Tolkien conceived of "wild" men hearing tales of the valar and thinking them gods, and their characters then being modeled after Men.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'The Powers are more akin to the archangels, I feel.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, that's the thing. The Elves, some of them, have met the Valar and love them. But what about men?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'They were not to be worshipped, that is certainly true.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I do not know that any angel had the power to create a people.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, I think men may see them as gods. But for the elves Iluvatar is god.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No Vala ever came to welcome the second children of Iluvatar to Middle-earth...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So Men have, as it were, a warped view of the Valar'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think Eru meant to have a more personal relationship with Men, but long ago they rejected him.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'IIRC, the Rohirrim thought that they had the 'patronage' of Orome. But this would be in an RCC sort of manner, not pagan worship'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Angels are, in my mind, servants. Gods create.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye, Lenn. Only a secondary glimpse at them. Though they hear the voice of Ulmo.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...remember though that the Valar did *sub*create Middle-earth....'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'That's correct, Melanie, none of the Valar can create.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So that might make them appear as gods to the Men who have never met them'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'but that is shaping, not creating ex nihilo, a distinction Tolkien would have been familiar with'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Melanie has a point. Aule made dwarves. Yavanna made ents.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Lenn, I agree'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Neither Aule or Yavanna were able to give souls to them.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'But only their bodies. Eru gave souls to the Dwarves and sent angelic-like spirits to the Ents, IIRC from the VAlaquenta'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'But, yes, Lenn, it is a subcreation. Using the matter and power of Go.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Or to the Elves. Elbereth is practically worshipped, if not officially. Her Name as a ward is adoration beyond the bounds of admiration, I think.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'True, Etaoin. Ents' souls came from their actually being a part of the Music of the Ainur, right? And Dwarves' souls by special dispensation of Eru...'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Oh, I like that line! ' Her Name as a ward is adoration beyond the bounds of admiration, I think' ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I've never found it easy to distinguish dulia from hypterduolia from eidolatria, but I think that their view of Elbereth is meant to foreshadow the RCC view of Mary'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Yes, Godwine, exactly.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I agree, Godwineson'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: '*hyperdulia'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, one last discussion topic on my list:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(2) Eldar and their names for things! Look at the list of names they gave to Men when the second children of Iluvatar showed up.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Consider also the elves' names for dwarves, "Naugrim" meaning the Stunted Ones. What insight does this give us about the elves?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Self-Righteous Pretty Boys?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'They tend to (like some poeple I know) see themselves as the measure of all things wink'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Then again, a dwarf would say that ;)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'A dwarf might well say that after being called Naugrim!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I didn't type in all the names when I typed up my question list. Let me do that now though, for any who don't have ch 12 handy:'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It is said that polite elves did not use the term to a dwarf, but only among themselves.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think that the Elves' views of other races was tainted by Norgoth.'
[To lmbbookclub] '"The Atani they [Men] were named by the Eldar, the Second People; but they called them also Hildor, the Followers, and many other names:'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Morgoth'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'So they are POLITE self-righteous pretty boys! Quite the improvement :)'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'there most used one was atani'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'One might rightly say that the Westron reflects 'naugrim' in the term 'dwarf', no?'
[To lmbbookclub] '"Apanonar, the After-born; Engwar, the Sickly; and Firimar, the Mortals; and they named them teh Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the children of the Sun.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I don't know, I see those names a simply very accurate.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'There are so many names and of a wide variety. Some are positive names, some not so much. I wonder which elves used which names and under what circumstances?'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'A more proper common term might be 'dwarrow'.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That is a good question, Gaia'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '*pouts*'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think it's likely that the Noldor came up with some of the bad ones.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'I don't care for that list of names.....'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'hahaha'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Or the nandor and other Avari'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Might be, Etaoin! Though Thingol and his Sindarin weren't all that fond of Men either'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Not all Noldor. Galadriel would not use those names.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Nor Finrod, the friend of Men'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Remember the lies that Morgoth whispered to Faenor about the coming of Men, which was one of the big reasons the Noldor left Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Galadriel would have in the beginning.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It depends on the man also. Of Aragorn, those names would hardly be used.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'And I cannot recall either Fingolfin or Finarfin using them.'
[lmbbookclub] Eijah: 'either way it just reenforcements how elven kingdoms of old was no different then the kingdom's of men later'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I disagree, Etaoin. For one, Galadriel spent the beginning in Doriath with Thingol and Melian.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Locney? Self-Cursed most definately.'
Lotropad save executing soon...
Lotropad settings saved.
Lotropad data saved.
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Faenor did have a significant amount of followers. Fingolfin and his kin went along because so many of their houses were follwoing Feanor.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Names cannot reflect badly upon the named, but only the namer. They are either truthful names, or they are not.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think Faenor's thinking infected many of them.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'True, but out of loyalty to the ties that bound them. The nobles among them protested the words said.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye, but many would not make Feanor King. They stayed with Fingolfin for that reason.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Galadriel was not a very nice person in the beginning. She was very proud and longed to make a kingdom for herself.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'There is enough variation in my people to suggest many names, applied anecdotally.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'How does wanting to make a Kingdom equate to not being a nice person?'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'why does that make her a "not nice person"?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Note how many of the elven names for Men in general apply to their mortality though. Sickly...Mortal...even Inscrutable...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed, Melanie. That's what I was saying. That it depended on the elf using the name, the man it was used upon and the situation in which it was used.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The thing about wanting your own kingdom is that part about ruling over others'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Well, she was rather easily induced to follow a kinslayer drunk with desire and rage...'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Well, she was somewhat haughty, and clearly looked down upon the Second Kindred. I think she may have felt usurped, in fact.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...that part about her wanting her own place to rule, does seem to connect with the exceptional ambition represented by Feanor...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Galadirel was one of the folk who followed Fingolfin, not Feanor.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Galadriel too is ambitious. So is that really so unusual for an elf?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Just that Feanor was *exceptionally* ambitious'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'It's not as unusual for the Noldor I would say.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Feanor 'worshpped the works of his own hands''
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think you're right, Khizli'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, she is also of the house of Finwe. The Noldor tend to be more ambitious than others.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Khizli brought up Turgon too. I think it is not all that unusual. The Noldor got to live in Valinor. They probably saw themselves as privileged people.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'In fact, they were!'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Although Turgon was urged by Ulmo. It was not all of his own doing.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed, Melanie!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This is both the flaw *and* the glory of the Noldor - their deep-delving, their drive to improve things'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'They were, but they were not always responsible with their priviledge.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The temptation for artists and craftsmen is loving your work too much, Tolkien, as a writer, was commenting on that.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He was urged to build Gondolin where he did, but the desire to recreate Tirion was in him from the leaving of Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Indeed Godwineson!'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Indeed, and his pride in his city contributed to its downfall.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Eraoin. He had too much invested in his creation. Like Feanor.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Still, Turgon remains one of my favourites of the Noldor. He would have been a great dwarf, in fact.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'A great big dwarf!'
Your friend, Ashenwoods, has gone offline.
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'It was the Ngoldor of Eregion who had the most friendship with the Dwarves, they had the love of making in common'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think it may be worth noting that though the Noldor were great and accomplished great things, the savior of Middle-earth was born of Men.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. we're defined by what we do. we are measured by what we accomplish. take that away, then what is left?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Eregion the Lost'
Your friend, Ashenwoods, has come online.
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '(Alright, I''
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Tamirien, I think the key is that the virtuous path is generally the middle path, stray into the extremes on either side and you lose your way.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I think no man could ever hope to save this land. That deed must be accomplished by another, if I do not say too much.'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '(I'm hopping off early ta take care of housework. Farewell!)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'It is the -over- love of what one has made that is the problem - such as Feanor refusing to let the Silmarils be used to privde light from the Two Trees'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'It is possible to lvoe the work of your hands too much... Feanor started a centuries long war over his jewels.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'and it is possible to love it too little.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'the extremes are do nothing, and strive to do all you can.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'That also is true, Etaoin'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I would think the extremes are to do nothing, and to do too much.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Rightly ordering our desires is a difficult thing for we Follower, and for the Eldar as well, it seems'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'no. I don't think you can love it too much. that makes no sense. what Tolkien is saying reflects his beliefs. that our accomplishments are given by higher powers.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Middle earth is saved more than once. Sometimes it is elves, sometimes an alliance of elves, men and dwarves. Before all that the Valar saved middle earth. Aragorn doesn't save Middle Earth by himself and his heirs will be half-elven.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'we don't accomplish. we are given. thank the givers ... and don't try on your own, you can't do it'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, I meant during the Silmarillion story, Gal.It's Earendil who goes to Valinor.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'And people are more important than things, as we also see in Leaf by Niggle. The painting was very important, but Parish's wife even more so.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'I love that story'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Earendil is half-elven, uniting the two'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Tam, I think the point is being too prideful of your work. And valuing it about all else.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Earendil is half-elven.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'representing both Elves and Men'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Ah, I suppose I shouldn't have opened that can of worms today.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I'll have to come back for that chapter. ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I am troubled by the notion that we do not accomplish. Many are given, and squander the gift. If this world is defined by one thing, it is that we must do what we can with the time we have.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'what's "too prideful" what else is there to value?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Heh! That's all right - we've branched off quite a lot today from chapter 12 but it has made for a great discussion!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think Tolkien's works are rich with many themes. We should resist trying to boil him down to saying just one thing.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I agree'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed, Lenn. I hope you will come back for that chapter and others Etaoin!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed!'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Tam, people are more vaulable than things.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm checking with Harperella to see if we can make the book club part of LMB forums publicly accessible, if Etaoin & Melanie and any other friends outside of LMB joining us today would like to check out past weeks' discussions'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'their lives are their own, too.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Desire is "taking", inspiring is "giving"'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'When Faenor started his war against Morgoth it resulted in thousands of deaths, including all his children. And over what? Revenge? Jewels?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Feanor thought the Silmarils were more important than people.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The link to that forum is http://lonelymountainband.guildlaunch.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=1064148&gid=128176&gid=128176 though that may not work for you until it is set to public'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'and those actions, what he did, defines him.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'not the cause of it, but what he chose to do.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Yes and they were wrong.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'And that was his error, for in reality he was defined by the One Who made him.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'he had every right to pursue his revenge. he didn't have the right to impact the others as he did.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'I wonder... Did Feanor "steal the fire of the gods to give to mankind", to bring up another philosophical classic?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The fire was given to him by the valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'his pride in his work is to be admired. his actions in his revenge are to be abhored. they're separate'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Still, what I mean, is that theme part of his story? Tolkien must have been well aware of it.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I would guess that he was Meant to imprison some of the light of the Two Trees in the Silmarils, but that he was also Meant to give that light back to benefit all, and he refused.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Tolkien clearly felt Pride a SIN and not to be admired.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: '-the- cardinal sin, in fact, from which the others derive'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That's a possibility, Godwineson'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Very true. That Feanor would not give the light back when it was needed was a sad moment for the Valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'as it was for Morgoth'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But then even if he had agreed to unmake the Silmarils so their light could return to the Trees - it was too late for Morgoth had already stolen the jewels...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'yeah. that's what I'm saying. Tolkien's philosophy is along those lines. that's a theme that is all through his writings. do as you're told and you're good. do as you want and you're bad'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think you misunderstand it, Tam.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think there are times when if you do what you want, it fits in with doing what is good. Lothlorien is good, and a result of the ambition of Galadriel and others.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'It's not about "doing as you're told" it's about making the right choices.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Though it has been told that way by spies of Morgoth. In reality, good is not arbitrary'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'no. I understand very well. but, this isn't a venue for that discussion ;) it's about Tolkien and Feanor and the Noldor :)'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Creating out of love and inspiration is good, and that is not a selfish act. Still it is also not a "following" act, but an independant action.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Etaoin. I agree with that.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'yeah, and the "right choice" is what? yep, doing as you were told.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Tolkien would believe, and his works show many times in many ways, that our rightful nature and purpose is to be self-giving, not grasping'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'yes, his writings certainly do reflect that philosophy :)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'that is an awful and inaccurate reductionism, Tam.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Gandalf is, in many ways, the teacher to the people in the LOTR books, and he takes plenty of initiative without being told what to do.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'If you're interested in that debate, Tam, I'd be willing to take it up with you at some point.'
Your friend, Finaor, has come online.
[To lmbbookclub] 'Or the other way around...the right choice was always the right choice; being told to do it was just by way of helping you get theere more efficiently...'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'not really. we could go back and take that apart piece by piece. he emphasizes the same thing over and over'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, often there is nudging.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I think that Tam might be saying that choosing what to call 'good' and what to call 'evil' is the greatest good, I think.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's also about fate. Some things are preordained in the music of Iluvatar.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Which the Ainulindale discusses at length'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think the idea of fate in the music is exaggerated.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Why is that, Etaoin?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, I think there is very little that was preordained.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Though I've spoken with people who thought Elves had no free will.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'There are many hints from the Wise that things are revealed as having meant to happen.'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'There's people that believe real life humans have no free will. That doesn't make it so.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I've spoken into the wee hours of the morning, with those who thought Men had no free will'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'lol Wow, that's a real stretch.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'But if the music meant that certain things had to be, then why are the Valar always so surprised by everything?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think it's clear that Iluvatar meant for elves to have more free will. Too bad the Valar stepped in and messed that up a bit.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Meant does not have to mean in a way that does not have foreknowledge of our genuine choices involved. But then I tend towards MOlina rather than Gottschalk'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'they didn't even see Morgoth knocking over the pillars coming, and that was just obviousl.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'I like to think that the road lays before me, but I must walk it. Perhaps that is the heart of the matter.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The way you will choose to walk it is foreknown and woven into the tapestry, but wthout your feet being forced'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Oh, I wish you had been here last time, Etaoin. We had a great discussion of the flaws of the Valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth is definitely a tricky subject, especially when you add in the Ocs.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Even here in the Sixth Age it is still a tricky subject, such things lie in the mind of Eru, and it is no wonder we can't encompass it with our thoughts'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Tolkien does suggest that Iluvatar had a better handle on the whole fate thing and it's his song. The Valar don't always understand it and attempt to intervene. That, more than anything, messes with the notion of fate.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'You may have your sixth age...I am quite happy with the third, thank you!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I still long for the First...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: ':-) I am relying on the Historia Britannorum for the Ages of MIddle-earth'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I'd take the age of the trees, if I could. :)'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Either that, or we, as humans and listeners and readers, are limited by nature in our understanding of our role. We can only do what is best by listening to that part of the music in our hearts.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sigh! Yes, the trees. I never did see them.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Yes, Khizli.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Khizli. Beautifully put.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Tolkien melded the two and it's one of his main points. but really, free will and fate are dichotomous.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'And I think the perceived different in how Elves and Men behave has something to do with Elves being closer to the music.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I suppose hanging candles in fir trees for the dark of winter is no match?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I don't like dichotomies.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Tam, that really depends on how you define fate.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Giaigil, LOL'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Enough candles and any fir tree is a match'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: '(saying she doesn't like dichotomies is making a dichotomies)'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'perhaps. I'm not so sure though.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Khizli, you dwarves sure think like engineers! wink'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'wink.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Though if you can't accept the existence of an all powerful creator, such as Eru, I can see why you might think that.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Every such theological aspect in Middle-earth has to start there.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'True.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Well, this has been an excellent and stimulating discussion!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'with no small amount of fun!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed!'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'For Middle Earth, that is true. However, why then did he have to correct Aule? All powerful would presume it was part of the plan from the beginning.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'then you would misunderstand the nature of Eru.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That's a good question, Tam.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Not if first He decreed free will. Which either pulls us off topic or else to what Tolkien would have thought about such things'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'maybe you misunderstand the nature of all powerful ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'lol I rather think you do. ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The valar had a lot of power, and Eru did appreciate free will as long as it was in harmony with the rest of his song.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'and that's why I say free will and fate are at odds. it's one or the other. you can't have both'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Decreeing Free Will is a very humourous expression!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Tolkien would most likely have been a semi-Augustinian, believing in free will which nonetheless did not negate God's superintendence of history'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Often free will is necessary for fate though.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Not at odds, but part and parcel of it.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Indeed, Gai.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'which is why you have to have a first cause which is greater in both extent, power, knowledge and complexity than all of the sum of all of the effects'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, the two are entertwined more often than it would seem. I recall what Melanie said earlier about fate being like a road but you have to choose to walk it...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Alas, I must depart. Thank you again for such a great discussion. I hope you will all come again next week!'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'I personally disagree with the knowledge aspect. I believe in a First Cause and some measure of Fate, but I don't uphold that the First Cause foresees.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'right, if you choose not to walk it ... then fate can't happen. Are you then fated not to walk it? where is the free choice then?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Farewell Gaiagil!'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, Khizli, in Middle-earth he would.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Next week we'll be on chapter 13...'
Your friend, Goldenstar, has come online.
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'True enough! And I love it all the more for it, since it makes a wonderful tale.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Alas, I won't be able to attend myself due to spending next weekend at a teachers' conference. But Gaiagil will be directing next week's book club so it is sure to be wonderful!'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'It's been fun. I may try to stop by again. Maybe even in person next time. :)'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'is a paradox. thus, free will and fate are at odds. they are dichotomous'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Wonderful, Etaoin!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'PLease do, Etaoin!'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'aye, been fun. you folks take care'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It'll be 11:30 am edt Saturday again.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'You'll need to explain WHY they are dichotomous, Tam.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Tamirien, de Molina and Craig would disagree iwth you'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I just gave an example why :)'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Ah, I missed that.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'but I think you example is too vague and doesn't actually give an explanation.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I know. A LOT of people disagree. but they aren't able to offer a convincing argument. there's always a hole.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'But if all of your possible choices are known ahead of time, and the tapestry of history is woven so that your choices and those of all others are trully free and not forced, and yet the tapestry form as it is Meant, both can be true at the same time'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Alt hist sci fi helps undertand this'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Tam, you are the one making an argument. You maintain that Free Will and Fate are dichotomous. The burden of proof is on you.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'maybe, but it does present a conundrum'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The finitude of our minds does cerate insurmountable problems at just the places we might expect'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Yes. if you have free will, then your choices cannot be preordained, otherwise your choice is not free will. you are doing as you were meant to do from the beginning.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'My illustration failed to convey? Consider the Music of the Ainur?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, let's start by figuring out how you view fate.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'free will changes fate. but fate, by definition, cannot be changed. it's the whole immovable object and irresistable force thing'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'As long as you don't understand what the extend of your role is, your decision that lead to following it are still Free Will'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'The only exception would be if one may freely choose from several preordained options. ;)'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Is it a power exerted by a specific force against a specific person in order to bring about a specific result?'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'no. with fate, there can be no options. otherwise it is not fate'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Or is it a choosing from an infinity of possible choices of all choosing beings in all possbile circumstances?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'If you adhere to a definition of fate as I just described, then yes, that would be contrary to free will. But that's not how Tolkien would have viewed it.'
[lmbbookclub] Carica: '*ahem*'
[lmbbookclub] Carica: 'Darn these channel numbers'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Well Tolkien aside since he, too, thinks they can be melded ... is fate something that must happen?'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Let me suggest, that someone was fated to be a ringbearer. He may freely choose what to do with that ring, yet it is his fate that he must choose. He may not freely choose not to have the ring. So free will and fate must dance together.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I think you need to answer my question first, Tam. Is that how you view fate?'
[lmbbookclub] Khizli: 'Nice example'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Either that, or just give us your definition.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'if it isn't, then what is fate?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Let's use the ringbearer as an example then.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Here's the difference... it's NOT that FRODO was fated to be a ringbearer.'
Your friend, Lilyberry, has come online.
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'I'm sorry, I can't hold a conversation with 5 people all blasting questions at me simultaneously. I don't read and write that fast'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Sorry!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'and I ought to interface with RL at least briefly'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'It's that A RINGBEARER is fated and Frodo was the first one to face the choice.'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'Gandalf did not think so.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Frodo could have said either yes or no, freely, and then the choice would have fallen to someone else until someone said yes.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I'm not sure Meant is the same a Fated'
[lmbbookclub] Melanie: 'He thought that Frodo was meant to have the ring.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I agree, Godwinesn.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'so, in that instance, the ring is fated to be destroyed. Frodo, as mentioned by Eldrond, was chosen. If he didn't find a way then no one would.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'No.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Gandalf said that even the Wise do not see all Ends, but the implication was that there is One who does.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'what, then, if Frodo chose not to take the ring?'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Is that line in the books or in the movie?'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'Book'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'books'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Well, hold on, it's been a while since I read it.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'well, it seems the fate of the ring going in wasn't really fate. it was a choice of saving the world or letting it fall under the shadow'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'only once? wink'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'so there is no fate. there is only free will'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'Again, that depends on how you define fate.'
[lmbbookclub] Etaoin: 'I suspect, that your version of fate does not exist, yes.'
[lmbbookclub] Tamirien: 'how else is there to define it? it's preordained or it isn't'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'like this possibly "Frodo, now there is someone who will take the Ring. I will make sure that it gets to him and that he succeeds in its destruction"'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I must take my leave for lunch, but please feel free to continue the discussion here!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'But preordained -how- by full knowledge of free choices, or arbitrarilty forcing?'


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