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Lennidhren
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re: LMB Book Club, September 4: Silmarillion ch. 8

Yes, it's less than an hour to book club...but here are our discussion topics!

1) Isn't it interesting that the "dark region of Avathar," Ungoliant's home, is so near to the light of Valinor?

2) We've previously read of the Maiar and their place in relation to the Valar; here we have Ungoliant, a Maia corrupted first to Melkor's service and then to her own independence. What does this chapter add to our understanding of Maiar and Valar and their places in the world?

3) What does Tolkien have against spiders? :-)

4) Of Melkor's doings with Ungoliant: "Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser." We've heard the saying that there is no honor among thieves; apply that to these two villains...

5) Judging by their approach to the festival time and the ability of Melkor and Ungoliant to sneak up to the Two Trees - what would you say of the innocence, or naivete, of the inhabitants of Aman at this time?

6) What do you make of Feanor and Fingolfin based on their exchange at the festival?


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re: LMB Book Club, September 4: Silmarillion ch. 8

Today's chat log:

[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I'm here I'm here I'm here!!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'As am I, Cap'n! I don't think anyone else is though. *looks around hopefully*'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '*unstealthes*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I *probably* won't be *physically* present - I have a lot of house item shopping to do...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but I'm listening in'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Here!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and anyone else who doesn't show up, is probabaly scared like a little girl of big bad ungoliant!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well, let's get started then! General thoughts on this chapter, anyone?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'SPIIIIIIIDDDEEEEERRRRRRRRSSSS!!!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Right! So, topic #3 ties in to that...*grin*'
[To lmbbookclub] '3) What does Tolkien have against spiders? :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'One probably crawled into his mouth when he was a wee lad.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'You're actually not far off, Jonathson'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'not sure...but I think there's something specifically corrupted about his spiders...corrupted, and alien...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'He was bitten by a spider as a child in South Africa and that launched a lifelong fear and loathing of them, as I recall'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Also, anytime you see a spider walking around - there's an instinctive move to stomp it'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ick...everything is nastier in south africa...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But as far as his character spiders, there is that element of corruption. But is it more so than with other evil characters such as the orcs?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'to a certain extent, I think it is...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'basically, between webbing, and the various horrible things that poison does...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and ungoliants general description as unquenchable and corruptive...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'theres something very...physically...corruptive about tolkien's spiders'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'not as spirit corruptive as melkor or the rings...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Just like TV shows play ominous music to tell the watcher something bad will happen - Big Spider is a story-telling device to the reader that this is bad, evil, etc.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'although that translation spreads when ungoliant reaches the trees...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, perhaps that cloud of darkness she weaves about herself and Melkor is a sort of bridge between her physical corruption and the spiritual - a darkness even Manwe's eyes can't pierce, yet she "weaves" it as you would think of a spider weaving a web'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I was more referring to when her phsyicall corruption reaches the trees, which then translates as a noxious spew that saps the spirit...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That, too'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Another topic in connection with Ungoliant...1) Isn't it interesting that the "dark region of Avathar," Ungoliant's home, is so near to the light of Valinor?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Tis also interesting Manwe didn't notice her, with him on top of that mountain'
Your friend, Finaor, has come online.
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, several times the chapter establishes that all the valar's attention was to the north'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, even though they *can* see all over the world...they have to *look* there...and for now, they were only looking north'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the stories have also established several times that the valar were...rather blind, to the subtleties of evil'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It also notes that Avarthar was an unexplored region. Even having been part of the creation of this world, the Valar still haven't explored it all...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'hey len - is there a place where I can see a picture of the whole of middle earth at this time - cuz the avarthar, mithlond, valla, etc etc...I can't picture any of it'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: ''
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'm wondering if someone sketched it out or something'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: 'like children'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, there might be - let me see...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Welcome Tyalieva - any relation to mar van.....mar yvan?...whatever it is?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Category:Maps_of_Aman might help'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: 'Hmmm... I was Tyalieva on Rubies of Eventide on the LOTRO forums prior to the game but MVT called me back with their music. I am Lucee. *now I will be quiet.*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'no need to be quiet...i was just wondering if the name was related to the kinship'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Actually, from that page of maps, http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Steven_White_Jr._-_Valinor.gif looks like a decent, if somewhat regularized one...'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: 'No. It comes from Mar Vanwa Tyalieva, Tolkien's poem The Cottage of Lost Play.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, thats the one...good to know - and thank you Lennidhren!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'll go check that out and bookmark it'
[To lmbbookclub] '(also, everytime I read of Avathar, I keep thinking of Avarthorn the Half-Wit Wight. Hurrah for Yngiwulf and podcasting!)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyway, moving on...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '??...ooooookay... :)'
[To lmbbookclub] '2) We've previously read of the Maiar and their place in relation to the Valar; here we have Ungoliant, a Maia corrupted first to Melkor's service and then to her own independence.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What does this chapter add to our understanding of Maiar and Valar and their places in the world?'
[To lmbbookclub] '(Andeon! Have you not heard the A&T podcast yet? *gasp*)'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'WHAT?!?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '((nope...don't really listen to podcasts, generally))'
[To lmbbookclub] 'This one, you should!'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Lenn......Get the net.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It's Loc and Gaiagil and me!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And also some really good stories told by Yngiwulf of Symphonious.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I know it is...and you guys are wonderful people...but Ales and Tales, while fun, isn't something I prioritize over...the other things I can spend my limited time on...'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'But Andeon......It's my Birthday.....'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, its waaaaaayy backburnered until I have a lot more freetime...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'actually, locney, you're unusually fortunate, in that your birthday is also a federal holiday...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aw. Well, it's only an hour (58 minutes precisely) a week...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so that I *will* in fact, have this monday off, and can make it to an ales and tales...'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: '*does a little dance*'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yay!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, back to the silmarillion for awhile...*nudge nudge*'
[To lmbbookclub] 'As for the podcast though - download the mp3 and put it on in the background when you're doing something else...'
[To lmbbookclub] '*grin* Right, right. Topic again:'
[To lmbbookclub] '2) We've previously read of the Maiar and their place in relation to the Valar; here we have Ungoliant, a Maia corrupted first to Melkor's service and then to her own independence.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What does this chapter add to our understanding of Maiar and Valar and their places in the world?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, apparently rebellion isn't unique to melkor'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its somewhat comforting, actually...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'to know that not ALL sources of rebellion are solely coming from melkor..'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'cuz now we have ungoliant, rebelled (possibly) because of melkor, but then abandoned him of her own accord'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'also, as near as I can tell, Tolkien spends some effort...clouding, ungoliants story, by saying the elves knew not where she came from, but...etc...etc...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'some have said" is not really definitive, although it does have that air of authority'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yep - a reminder that, as we get this story from elves' perspectives, there are some things they haven't figured out themselves...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What do you all make of the note that, when Melkor put on his form of a dark lord for this meeting with Ungoliant, it was the form he wore from then on forever?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I get the feeling, and its only a *feeling*, that meeting with ungoliant was only coincidental to his taking that form forever...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I think, what they did from that point forward cemented melkors nature as an overt evil...'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: 'He embraced the darkness forever, his heart unable to turn back to the light????'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'He probably realized after this - there's no way he will get *another* chance for forgiveness - so might as well go Full_Evil'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and so there was no point...yeah, what they just said :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yeah, I imagine he'd have a hard time deceiving people after this...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Which does tie into the next topic. Yay segue!'
[To lmbbookclub] '4) Of Melkor's doings with Ungoliant: "Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser."'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We've heard the saying that there is no honor among thieves; apply that to these two villains...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '((I think I should name one of my horses segue))'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, no honor among theives...'
[lmbbookclub] Locney: 'Oi!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'm not sure its about that...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'theives, not burglars\'
Your friend, Finaor, has gone offline.
[To lmbbookclub] 'Heh, yes. Careful distinction: Thieves = Melkor, Ungoliant. Burglars = Bilbo, Locney.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but back to the point...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'this particular passage sounds like its tied to...later bit...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'searching...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '"but Ungolaint bleched forth black vapours as she drank, and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'for whatever reason, the passage that Melkor gave up his promise lightly and laughed, etc etc...always sounded to me like there was a "but" coming...'
[To lmbbookclub] '(Oh, nice coincidence...I have Middle-earth Network Radio on in the background and it just played The Two Trees, aka some...apparently Irish?...song title, by Loreena McKennitt...)'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: 'her ego and pride?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and the "but" comes later (stop snickering, Locney) when Ungoliant begins to out-uh-oh-evil Melkor'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Oh yes - for once the Dark Lord knows fear himself...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: '"Lightly he made his vow". He broke the lamps, misled the Valar. He felt he had nothing to fear from a Maier, a lesser being, which he corrupted.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yup - anytime I see "lightly did someone do something" or something along those lines, its usually strong forshadowing that they're gonna regret not taking the whatever seriously, later'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Definitely!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, let's move on to our protagonists...'
[To lmbbookclub] '5) Judging by their approach to the festival time and the ability of Melkor and Ungoliant to sneak up to the Two Trees - what would you say of the innocence, or naivete, of the inhabitants of Aman at this time?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'They didn't even post guards, as I recall? Perhaps that's arrogance, and not innocence?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'what? there was someone else in this chapter besides Ungoliant? hunh.... :)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'oh, they had lots of guards...to the north :)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'oh, as far as around the trees...yes'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Heh. It is hard to see anyone past Ungoliant when she devours the trees and swells up like that...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, on the other hand...well...i dunno - it *is* a little odd...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'before the 2 lamps had been spilled, I might have argued that the lights are so central to their lives, they can't imagine anyone doing damage to them...'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'More than a bit odd. This was after the Lamps were broken.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Yes, what you said :)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but melkor has already toppled the first set of lights...it *does* seem like they'd have a reason to worry about the health of the trees'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'except...except...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'in their minds, Melkor is still their only threat - and they know him...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and so they're watcing for him in the north...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'maybe they, for all intents and purposes, feel that the trees are secure because they're watching the direction their enemy will come from'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and know not yet the subtleties of evil'
[To lmbbookclub] 'A reasonable possibility...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They do seem to have grown complacent though, even with the watch in the north'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Considering that they hadn't even explored Avathar - how many other regions have they not explored?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And just how short are the memories of immortal beings?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*sings under his breath*.."who wants...to live...forever.......who WANTS...to LIVE...foreveeeeerrrr"...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hehe! Especially when, the longer you live, the more your light bulbs go out!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, lets just say, that the maiar have demonstrated...a very curious sense of awareness'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'even during the song of creation, we've established that the maiar noticed some things, and not others...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'then, they recall certain things that they had somehow forgotten, or in some cases, overlooked, until it was reviewed - like a movie where, the first time, you're so enraptured, you miss subtle moments'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye - immortal they may be, but still finite beings'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Of course the Valar/Maiar aren't the only opponents of Melkor and Ungoliant here...'
[To lmbbookclub] '6) What do you make of Feanor and Fingolfin based on their exchange at the festival?'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: '((good song! Highlander))'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '((all good songs - just picked up a new queen best of collection, including all those hard to find ones on princes of the universe, plus the theme to Flash!!))'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, besides the rather heavy-handed forshadowing of the consequence of finwhatsisname giving he fealty to finwhatever...'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: '((I forgot))'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes. Fealty and vows and oaths and things...that's what the Silmarillion i smade of!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'now that I think of it...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'theres a lot of...regret...in the silmarillion...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'all manner of people and occasions when people make mistakes, and then suffer for them, or attempt to recant/repent...'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: 'and even the gifts of the elves are forgotten after awhile'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'poke poke'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Looks like about time to wrap it up...So, any last thoughts on this chapter, anyone?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'm sure Andeon has more to say on the subject of spiders :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'to be honest, i think we covered most of Ungoliant's first appearance - i hope she shows up again!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'She does, briefly, in the next chapter'
[To lmbbookclub] 'To follow up on all that foreshadowing with Melkor...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'good for her!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, wrap up thoughts...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'Ungoliant...has a lot of uncovered story, I think...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye, so much the elves don't know about her'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'between being tempted by melkor, leaving melkor, and hanging around in the south of valinor for so long...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'speaking of which...valinor wasn't the first place the maiar settled, was it?'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Nope - there was an original place in Middle Earth the Valar settled'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No - the Valar built Valinor after...hm...was it after the lamps were broken?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'think so...but Ungoliant was still hanging out here...when they arrived..'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'talk about poor choice in real estate'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or wait...if they *built* valinor...then..how...when...grrr....'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes! They should've explored more before settling own...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Valinor is the city - Aman would be...the continent, I guess? And Avathar a region in the south of Aman...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, thats right...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, heres hoping aman was here the whole time...and ungoliant abandoned wherever maiar hang out when they're not on middle earth'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'abandoned melkor, came to aman for...whatever reason...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and then the valar came to aman after melkor burned half the world...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'hrm...that *might* explain it...they were building a new home AND keeping the world from burning when they moved in...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'maybe thats how they missed Ungoliant...*shrugs*...one possibility, anyway'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes, that sounds about right'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'I can't help but wonder - if Shelob was Ungoliants kid - than who was her father?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ew...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'of all the questions i've ever had, that is NOT one of them! :)'
[lmbbookclub] Brenyn: 'as they said in the prof tolkien podcast...who knows but guaranteed she ate him :P'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'hey brenyn! welcome back!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and I like that answer!'
[lmbbookclub] Brenyn: 'hehe thx'
[lmbbookclub] Tyalieva: '((LOL))'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Any further thoughts on the chapter before we do readalouds?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'not here!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right then, since we're all in different spots today, speak up in this channel if you want in the readaloud raid whether to recite or to listen!'


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