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re: LMB Book Club, July 17: The Silmarillion "Of Aule and Y

Book Club meets at 4pm again this Sunday, discussing chapter 2: "Of Aule and Yavanna." Discussion topics soon to follow in this thread...Feel free to post questions or thoughts here as you read!


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re: LMB Book Club, July 17: The Silmarillion "Of Aule and Y

Oh, and since this chapter introduces the race of Dwarves - in Thorin's Hall we shall meet today!


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re: LMB Book Club, July 17: The Silmarillion "Of Aule and Y

All right, time to get some discussion topics set!

(1) How does the concept of subcreation fit into the story of Aule's [sub]creation of the dwarves?

(2) Aule makes the dwarves out of his impatience but responds with humility to Iluvatar's chiding. What are the *positive* and *negative* outcomes of the dwarves being created in this way?

(3) For our longtime Book Club members (or, well, anyone who's read The Hobbit!) how does the description of dwarves at their first making here, compare to how they are characterized in The Hobbit?

(4) To balance out the dwarves, Yavanna envisions Ents. How does the making of the Ents also demonstrate the concept of subcreation?

(5) A third race comes forth in this chapter too: Why does the introduction of the Ents prompt Manwe to think of Eagles?

(6) What do we learn of the relationship between Aule and Yavanna?


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re: little late...

this was meant for last reading, but it took me awhile to find the time to write it - again, this is a first draft, and there are still some sections that I'd like to...trim...a bit. Also, theres some *extremely* vaguely adult-ish situation content in there...its really, really quite mild, I think, but fair warning regardless.





Of Osse and Uinen

above, the sea clashed against the cliffs, and rain-streaked gales tore across the shore. The tempest's fury was unleashed by Osse, and in the roar of the wind you could hear his laughter, so pleased was he with the unleashing of his strength. But deep below the churning waves, watched Uinen. The raging storm above was a gentle rolling current below, but she knew too well that the slightest disturbance here in her domain was reflected tenfold above, and she remembered the desperate plea of Aule, and bowed her head in grief.

The storm passed, and Osse's fury and passion was spent, and he laid beside Uinen as she watched. She curled beside his warmth, and grieved for what she must do. As he slept, here in the deeps, in her domain, she bound him up with all the creatures and bounty of the deep. He awoke to find himself bound, and the storms gathered overhead, and the deep sea began to roll, as he raged and struggled against his bonds.

“What is this, Uinen? Why have you done this? Release me!”

“Come, my love” she replied. “For while you revel in raising up the seas against all and everything that you can reach, you have no vision for the havoc you cause, or the hurt that you bring at the bidding of Melkor, for I know he comes to you, and fans the embers of your ire.”

Despite his protestations, she took his bound form, and through deep and secret ways of water, brought him before Ulmo, to face judgement.

Ulmo's countenance was terrible, and in her heart, Uinen feared the worst for Osse. She bowed before Ulmo, and begged...

“Please, Lord Ulmo, have mercy upon my husband, whom I love. For no one besides the Maker knows his heart better than I, and while he has been manipulated and deceived by Melkor, I promise you, no malice lies in his heart. Let me show him, please, the error of his ways, before you render judgement upon us both. For his judgement I must share, for our hearts are bound as one.”

At her urgent plea, Ulmo relented, and remanded custody of Osse to Uinen, his spouse. And she showed him visions of all he had wrought at the behest of Melkor. There, she showed him the shattered cliffsides, the ruined coasts. She showed him the torn trees, the drowned fields, the flooded beaches. And there, upon the beach, he saw a great host of the dead of the deep. For in his incitement of the oceans, he had pulled forth all manner of Uinen's bounty, and laid it to waste upon the shore. A field of corpses, of fish and all manner of beasts of the sea, and all manner of the living treasures of the deep. All those things that she loved; all those things that she had dominion over, and trusted her to watch over and protect them, lay ruined as far as the eye could see, like a battlefield of the dead, all wrought at the hands of Osse.

He fell to his knees in the surf, and wept for all the harm he had done to she he loved.

“My wife, my love. As I loved to unleash the fury of the sea – the roar of the wind, the hammer-stroke of the waves – I was blind to the devastation that I wrought. Melkor would come to me, and challenge my might. He would dare me to tear down the untearable cliffs, or to wreak ever more destruction than I ever had before, and like a blind fool, I rose to his challenge, with no thought for that which I destroyed.”
He held a broken body in his hands, a quiet, inoffensive thing that lived once in the deep places, and sang to her.

“Every one of these, is a wrong I've done to thee. Each one, a cruel blow struck against you; you, whom I would rather die than harm. Illuvatar forgive me, the horror and harm I've done to you without seeing.”

Through the tears in his eyes, he turned to she he loved.

“Take me before Ulmo one last time, my wife. I await my judgement.”

It was then that the sea rose up behind them both, for Ulmo rules all the waters, and watched those two that he had entrusted with his domain. And he stared down at Osse with all the cold, implacable judgement of the sea, and spoke his judgement.

“Osse; reveling in the rage and fury of the seas over which I gave you dominion, you have become a weapon of the enemy. He who would unmake all that we have striven for, he that strives to overmaster all our works, has used you to do his bidding, and in your thoughtlessness, you obeyed. But you are fortunate...”

And he looked down upon Uinen with all the vast, limitless possibilities of the sea...

“She that loves you has endured your treachery, your carelessness, and has opened your eyes. Truly, it is with love, that the most subtle and powerful plans of the enemy will be undone. Go now, with new vision – I charge you once again to take mastery of the seas, of the peril and danger within...”

And his voice thundered like the all the oceans of the world...

“...But you will always do so now with an eye to Uinen; should you begin to lose sight of the havoc that you wreak, she will remind you of it, and for her, you will relent. She will hold the treasures of the deep, and you it's fury, and together you will turn the will of the seas to the plan of Illuvatar, and against the will of Melkor.”

Since that day, the sea has always been full of peril and wonder, but whenever the fury and tempests of Middle Earth begin to grow great, Osse hears the voice of she he loves, and the winds calm, and the slashing torrent of the storm becomes a quiet rain, and the clouds part; for she is always there with him, to hold him close, to quiet his racing heart and raging passion with her warm embrace.


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re: LMB Book Club, July 17: The Silmarillion "Of Aule and Y

Attendance was down today but still a good conversation! Here is the chat log for those who couldn't make it...

### Chat Log: OW/Books 07/17 04:07 PM ###
[To lmbbookclub] 'Let's get started, and perhaps more will wander in...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sounds good.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'right-oh'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Dwarves, Ents, and Eagles! What a fun chapter! General thoughts on it? Who wants to go first?'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'well...I like Aule...and dwarves. Those are my two coppers.'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: '=]'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I have a general comment. Did anyone else see this as a cute little play?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, we get some nice detail on the actual event of Aule creating dwarves...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'oh...with little robotic dwarves, then little cowering dwarves?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and aule and illuvatar just sort of looming over them all?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm! it could work well as a play, indeed...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'One of those like a Greek God morality tale.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Iluvatar as deus ex machina :-D'
[lmbbookclub] Carliee: 'haven't read the chapter in years, but listening in :)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hi Carliee!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*waves to Carliee*'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'i definitely see it'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Welcome Carliee! Thanks for the recipe!'
[lmbbookclub] Carliee: 'You're welcome, Gaia!'
[lmbbookclub] Carliee: '*waves to everyone*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I just kept thinking of us doing it on a stage somewhere while reading.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It could make a good short play to enact in game - we had some talk a while back of starting a LMB theatre troupe...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Exactly.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I wonder if we should change the language a bit or do it verbatim?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We'd have to look more closely at it'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That sounds like a great Silmarillion Project for someone :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'And as short as it is, it could be performed at an A&T and probably not take up too much time on the program'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or something for our budding acting troupe'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think I'll script it. I'm still working on poem of the pantheon.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Go for it!'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'does anyone feel like the chapter's a big change from the surronding ones? [i haven't read it since january, but made a note on that.]'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'anyway, regarding first question - Illuvatar's first description of what Aule's done'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 're: pelagrin - yes, we seem to be getting a more...dramatic, storytelling...with only two main characters, and actual activity between them instead of just listing of natures...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, that is a difference. Not just the genesis type of listing stuff. Now there's drama and interaction.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, anyway, re: 1st question - illuvatar's description of the dwarves only have thought and action when Aule concentrates on them...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'makes them sound kinda like do...er...action figures :)'
[To lmbbookclub] '1st question as in from the forums?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'But they flinch... That's what brings Iluvatar to accepting them.'
[To lmbbookclub] '*posts the topic now being discussed* (1) How does the concept of subcreation fit into the story of Aule's [sub]creation of the dwarves?'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'kind of seems as if there's more focus on them as soley...physical beings at that point?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I'm confused about the question thing. Last time I checked the forums there weren't any yet...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It was not very long ago I added them...ah, procrastination!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Actually, procrastination today = podcast wave :-D'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'gotta bail for a bit - doing tinki's sister's interview now...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I know... We've been chatting all morning!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Now the flinch - I took that as the sign that Iluvatar had just then accepted them, given them life of their own, rather than something the dwarves did on their own that made him accept them.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The main thing about Aule's creation is his reaction when it's discovered. I love the fact that impatience is what leads him to folly.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'still getting that "kids that can't wait until christmas day" vibe'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Indeed! He begins with impatience - but ends with humility'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I don't know about that Lennidhren. He only accepts them after they cower.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i love that the ainur, for all their power and creation and whatnot...are so *excited* about meeting the mysterious children of illuvatar'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Here's what he says though:'
[To lmbbookclub] '"Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see tht these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will."'
[To lmbbookclub] 'He holds the flinch up as proof to show Aule that he *has* accepted them already'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Agreed on that, Andeon! Aule was just so impatient for *more people* to be able to enjoy the wonders of creation...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, and in rereading the flinch, I see more of Iluvatar's hand in it: But Iluvatar had compassion upon Aule and his desire, because of his humility and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid..."'
[To lmbbookclub] '*nod*'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'I wonder, though - why Aule gets a quick divine visit when creating Dwarves - Yet Melkor gets away with creating orcs, etc.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I'd say Iluvatar knows to expect humility from Aule but none from Melkor'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'I read much into it...if I may...the same situation from Abraham of the bible'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think Melkor is allowed room to wreak havoc as part of the greater plan, but yes, that seems unfair.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He may have been testing Aule to see if he was now more like Melkor in his hubris.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'it could also be argued that Illuvatar's presence is meant for Aule's chance at repentance...whereas with Melkor, it'd be a waste of time'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Melkor got his chance during the Ainulindale. Twice.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Although - isn't it said that the Dwarves have their own creation stories - which they don't reveal? Don't recall who said that.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'So - these are *elvish* stories - and not necessarily true?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Lots of things the dwarves don't reveal! I don't recall anything specific about a creation story but that may well be. These are definitely the elvish perspective that we're reading now.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's in this chapter as well, Jonathson.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...so, have we covered the question of subcreation? Anything to add from what we read before the Silmarillion in On Fairy Stories, Leaf by Niggle, Mythopoeia...?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'sadly, i'm still behind on the subcreation thing...but there is something about Aule wanting to mimick, to some extent, the activities of his own creator'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The idea of subcreation needing to be approved by the creator is intriguing given Tolkien's own subcreations.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'an impulse which Illuvatar seems to understand'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Especially as the creation of ME is actually a subcreation. So Aule's is a subsubcreation...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I wonder if there's something here about subcreations which are ahead of their time as Aule's dwarves were created too early, before the Children of Iluvatar entered the scene?'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'is it the impulse or his love he relates to?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aule''
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'Iluvatar to Aule'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aule's argument is a good one. For love of the father and for desire to see the new world, Aule does this. An honoring of the creator, not a blasphemy.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Yes - and Iluvatar is quick to accept that argument'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Taking the dwarves in the spirit in which they were made...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I wanna be like you dad... You know I'm gonna be like you....'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'okay, yes. I agree.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The next topic goes along with the first so let's move to it now:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(2) Aule makes the dwarves out of his impatience but responds with humility to Iluvatar's chiding. What are the *positive* and *negative* outcomes of the dwarves being created in this way?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Positives: They get to be. Aule gets to include his creations in the world.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Well - Elves and Dwarves fight like cats and dogs enclosed in a small room'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I loved that bit about his children fighting with his adopted children.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah yes! That's the penalty...or the natural consequence, if you will...for the dwarves being created too early...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They aren't allowed to crowd out the Firstborn as, well,, firstborn'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He also has to wait for them. He gets punished for his impatience by being asked to be patient.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He also gets into hot water with the wife.'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'negative: the hardships of the dwarves? I draw that conclusion perhaps from the elvish point of view and their bias. [and don't remember reading it directly]'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yavanna is none to pleased.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, the dwarves are limited by the things they love. They are also not immortal as the elves are.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I like that, Gaia - punished for impatience by being made to be patient!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's a typical parent maneuver. (American Spelling)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'test'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, i see how its going to be...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I am here, but not here, where are you?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'some week, we're going to have to have "european spelling night"'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We are at the Festival Arena in Thorin's Hall, Godwin'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In honor of the creation of Dwarves!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That would be fun.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'We're in where the beer brawls are.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so get out your latinate 'o's, your english extra 'U's, and your german superfluous "h's'
[To lmbbookclub] '*chuckle*'
[To lmbbookclub] 'No, actually it's more like...*snicker*'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, another topic on the dwarves:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(3) For our longtime Book Club members (or, well, anyone who's read The Hobbit!) how does the description of dwarves at their first making here, compare to how they are characterized in The Hobbit?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'or we could get really crazy, and whip out some welsh...geez, with the 'ff' and 'lw's...those boys is CRAAAAAAZZEEEEE!!!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'pnawn da, Andeon'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, they still point out that dwarves are swift to anger and swift to fast friendship'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Watch it with the Welsh, Andeon, or I'm going to have to rewrite more Latin textbook sentences to be about you!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'which, iirc, was a high point of the hobbit'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'that dwarves carried grudges for centuries, across multiple generations, but also held to friendships for an equal time'
[To lmbbookclub] '*nodnod*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think they are true to form. We see the stubbornness in many ways, but especially in Thorin's last act of rejecting Bilbo.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'a dwarf indebted to someone indebted his whole family for generations to that...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I'm here, but where are you?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'ahh, my eyes hadn' tadjusted from the sunlight yet'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: ';/laugh'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! That takes a while in these dwarven halls!'
[lmbbookclub] Trikzi: 'hello'
[lmbbookclub] Pipoe: 'hello'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Welcome!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'greetings pipoe! welcome to the book club!'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: '*wave*'
[lmbbookclub] Trikzi: 'teaching her our channels'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Welcome!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'So, we were just comparing dwarves at their first creation in this chapter, to dwarves in The Hobbit. Any other thoughts on that?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'rhydrych chi'n dda?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'There's also the enmity in the Fellowship of the Ring, which Legolas and Gimli repair through their budding friendship.'
[lmbbookclub] Pipoe: '\joinchannel lmbcafe'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Yes, but tdoesn't that involve the Nauglamir of which we will read anon?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, which is another of those moments. There seems to be a sibling rivalry going on throughout the history of Middle Earth.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye - but even that incident of the Nauglamir grows out of this original enmity...dwarves and elves never totally trusted each other'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'that can be seen in the visit to Rivendell in the Hobbit as well, a bit.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Didn'th elp that when the Elves discovered t hem, they called them "uglies"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'actually, i've got a partial question, regarding that...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, and the treatment of Gimli in Lorien.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'No, not at all, Godwineson!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'in our first introduction of the ainur, Aule becomes beloved of the Noldor, I think, the craftsman elves...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'That's right'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and, the dwarves, the children of Aule, become famous friends (for a time) with elves during the golden age of Khazad-Dum'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, but Feanor, the best of those, goes a bit psycho...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I definitely think it is a sibling rivalry sort of situation. There are moments of concord interspersed with moments of discord.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'm just thinking that for all the strife made of between dwarves and elves, theres roughly an equal amount of love and friendship, but everyone just seems to forget those parts happened'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Very much so. The idea of Firstborn children vs. Adopted children of Iluvatar feeds into that sibling rivalry'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Can they be called adopted if only their bodies were made by Aule?'
[lmbbookclub] Inzilzagar: 'It's interesting to look also at Nargothrond and Doriath, two cases where the relationship between Elves and Dwarves worked out very differently - even without going into the whole Eol thing.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed, Andeon.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm...it's just that the times when they get along, even then it's more in trade or alliances and less in individual friendships - apart from Legolas and Gimli'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Nargothrond is a lovely bit.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Dwarves are stiff-necked, and that would hurt, having to look up all the time when talking'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: ';-D'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'is that why all their stairwells are at such peculiarly deceptive angles?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ha! That must be it...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Finrod does well in personal relationships... hence Nargothrond.'
[lmbbookclub] Inzilzagar: 'Yup; big Finrod fan here.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He's much cooler than Feanor.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'And who is his kid sister?'
[To lmbbookclub] '*ponders how many chapters till we will meet Finrod and Feanor...*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*is confuzzled and bebothered*'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'We'll get there.'
[lmbbookclub] Inzilzagar: 'Galadriel, right? If memory serves me.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'right'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, since it *is* quite a few chapters before these names actually come up - back to chapter 2 :-)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well now, it is not only the elves that will be at odds with the dwarves. Let's go on to talk about the next race introduced in this chapter: The Ents...'
[To lmbbookclub] '(4) To balance out the dwarves, Yavanna envisions Ents. How does the making of the Ents also demonstrate the concept of subcreation?'
[lmbbookclub] Ivyleen: 'Testing, is this the bookclub? ))'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I did that research when I created my background as Gaiagil is the granddaughter of Feanor.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hi Ivy! Yes it is!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Welcome Ivy!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'besides the fact that they're trees?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: ':)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah, trees...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I love Yavanna. She's so preoccupied with growing things!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i suppose I *really* should get around to reading that subcreation chapter - seems to come up a lot'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'This is more sibling rivalry at work. She's upset that Aule got to create a being and hers will fall to their axes.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Just want to say, Gaiagil, that I do -not- have a Silmaril. Just so you know.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'My father wandered in madness because of the Silmaril he cast into the Sea. None in our family want it now.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Anyway, focusing on the subcreative aspect of the Ents...*when* were they first dreamed up?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Whew!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Frank L. Baum?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The Ainulindale. I love Manwe's meditation.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'Dare I ask whom is your mother then?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Where he remembers the bits of the song where he and Yavanna joined in harmony to foretell of the ents. and talking eagles.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'What that part makes me wonder is...were the dwarves in the song back then, too?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'OOC: No mother mentioned, but on my other server I am the daughter of Irelande. It's an inside joke!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think not, as Iluvatar does not come in and yell at Yavannie about her desire, and Manwe is reminded that it has already been ordained.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'In that case...here we have an interesting take on subcreation, that even things that weren't in the grand plan from the beginning *can* be added to it, as the dwarves are.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'But that at the same time...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'm...sensing...some differences...somehow'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Unless that is part of the Music that was not revealed to the Valar?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Manwe didn't *remember* that Ents had been foreordained until this reprise of the music in his vision...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The song seems very fluid. Iluvatar seems eager to share in the creation of the world. An odd vision given Tolkien's convictions.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the creation of the dwarves more or less requires illuvatars presence/oversight'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'even though it turns to his plan'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'question: doesn't a lot of this have to do with the ''purpose'' of the Ents? As protectors?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Yes, Only Iluvatar could give them souls/spirits.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but the creation of eagles and ents...don't seem to have quite the same...effect, that the "children" do'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It may be, Andeon, that that explains why he visits Aule as he does.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but yes, what pelagrin is saying is sorta leading to my idea...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, they are the shepherds, Pelagrin.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'that the ents AND eagles all seem to be...counterbalances, created'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'It isn't clear to me wither they are Eruhini, or if they are lesser Maiar, since spirits went out to them, what exactly did it say?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'to balance out the EFFECT of the children...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and not quite as...dynamic, as the children themselves'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'exactly Andeon'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'What intrigues me about this is that the Eagles and Hawks are already in existence though this chapter specifies that Yavanna held back flowers and birds for later. The raptors aren't included in the birds I guess.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm. So, ents and eagles - more like...nature spirits if you will, more bound to the world while the Children are something separate'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Ooh, nice capture, Lenn.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'I wonder if thati sn't the case. The Eagles of Manwe are "the spies of Manwe"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'its *feeling* that way...'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'I read a lot into their creators personalities as well Lennidhren,'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'as a reason for being created as such'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Do say on, Pelagrin.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '"...and the thought of Yavanna that she hhad put into his heart grew and unfolded;"'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The creation is dynamic and ever changing. It's an intriguing concept.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '1 - inception, anyone? 2 - curious that her thought spreading matches her penchant for growing things'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'well, I feel that Yavonna [for the ents anyway] was quite worried about the almost, rash creation of the dwarves, and that the Ents, may have been directly contered to them.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Husband and wife sqabble.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Absolutely, Pelagrin. There's no question about that. She wanted to create something to counter what she could see of the future... The waste of her creations.'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'yes. it seemed that she desperately wanted to protect her own.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'This comes hot on the tails of Melkor's ruination of Arda too. She is still hurting from that betrayal.'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'and was, hurt by Aule.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I do love his come-back line in the end though."Nonetheless, They will have need of wood." There he is reminding her that he is aiding her in the tree's creation in the first place.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'A theme running through this is the temptation for the maker of something to become too involved with it, to be greedy and selfish with it.'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'what i find interesting,'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, Godwineson, or to put too much stock in it.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'A good point...there must be a balance between the dwarves' need of wood and the ents' protection of it'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'is Yavanna is going through a lot, yet seems to keep a rash head with her decission of Ents.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Yavanna, Melkor, Feanor, the Dwarves, etc.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We've kind of touched on topic 6 here so I'm going to skip ahead and throw it in:'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yavanna is a tragic figure. She sees many of her best creations destroyed. The trees are next.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'even the Ring'
[To lmbbookclub] '(6) What do we learn of the relationship between Aule and Yavanna?'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'sorry for spurring that skip Lenn lol]]'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'There is rivalry, but their skills work together. They don't have an out and out fight over this, but you can tell she's hurt and disappointed in her husband'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'despite my most recent story entry...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'd have to argue that we should probably avoid ascribing human sense of marriage to these figures'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Why? Because they are both siblings and husband/wife?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'these entities are spouse - husband and wife, in a sense, although I'm not sure we see the word husband/wife used...i'd have to go back and check'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We do see "spouse" more often, at the least, I'd say'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but their...relationships...with each other are at least partly defined by their nature, the place they fill in this cosmology of sorts'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'Well...Tolien does give them gender, and personality as such.'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: '"One of these days, Yavanna, one of these days - bang, zoom, straight to the moon!"'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but they're not *human*... and i think its important to remember that'
[To lmbbookclub] 'An interesting thing about such relationships though: Aule doesn't tell any of the other Valar *but* Yavanna about the dwarves. And when Yavanna goes to Manwe for help she still doesn't reveal Aule's secret...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'we...anthropomorphize (??) them to give us some context...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'True, Lenn!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hm, is there a greek word for elf? We...eldaromorphize them? *grin*'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and they certainly have some recognizable human qualities...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think it would be difficult as a writer, not to see normal spousal relationships when writing of these even though they are Valar.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, if we're gonna do that, lets make it SEXY...Eldaromorphate!'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'even with avoiding their relationship, Yavanna's pain comes through'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Tolkien did see these relationships and there are hints of it here.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Another interesting detail: At one point in these stories Tolkien had the Valar bearing children, but then he took that out...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The herald of Manwe and handmaid of Varda were originally their children'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The revision suggests that Tolkien wanted them to be *less* anthropomorphic...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Interesting!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ditto'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Yes, there is the suggestion that things like the Valaquenta are how either the Elves, or possibly Aelfwine the Mariner interpreted things to be understood by the race of Men.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That is also true, Godwineson. Sort of like the metatext for the LOTR (The Redbook...)'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Right, that came to replace the Aelfwine concept as the bridge for the lore'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'But also the translation of Westron texts into English... Metalinguistical...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Layers upon layers. It's why I can keep rereading all this over and over...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Aye! True of all the best books'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All right, let's finish out the topics:'
[To lmbbookclub] '(5) A third race comes forth in this chapter too: Why does the introduction of the Ents prompt Manwe to think of Eagles?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Indeed.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*thinks* If I NEVER read the Scarlet Letter again, it'll be too soon'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Hehe! How many times did you read that?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think they are co-created. The thought to give speech to trees and eagles comes in the same harmony.'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'I believe Manwe does see the Ents of having a ''purpose''.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'just the once...but it was AWFUL...mutability...mutability...MUTABILITY!!! SHUT UP ABOUT MUTABILITY ALREADY!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: '*looks apologetic* sorry'
[To lmbbookclub] '(I've lost track of exact numbers, but by the end of my English Ed degree, Scarlet Letter was my third most read book...first, Hamlet...second, Dante's Inferno...just how many classes can manage to throw those in?)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'That's me and Moby @#$%& Let's not get started on the purposes of Whale Blubber.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 're : eagles - yes, its weird - theres some discrepancy between thought and activity here'
[To lmbbookclub] '(How did we get to the Scarlet Letter from Silmarillion?)'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Moby @#$% was on my Master's Exam! Sigh.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'notice that, as far as i can tell, yavanna gets worried that all the trees will get cut down'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'how about 200,000 leagues and types of algae?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so she goes to manwe and says she wants to make tree protectors'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'manwe says thats weird...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: '*giggles at Pelagrin.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but then remembers that yavanna sang about this in the song'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so, she's already *had* the thought, but he forgot/didn't notice'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Right, because unlike Iluvatar, Manwe's creative powers are limited.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'now that she reminds him she already told him about it, *he* remembers that he worked with her, and made the eagles too'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Valarian memory blocks!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'so *he* reminds *her* that HE sang with her about the thought she already had that she just now came up with'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'The anime?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Well, imagine a concert that goes on for days. Every movement is exciting and interesting, then in comes some guy with an out of tune Tuba and there's this battle of the bands... Wouldn't some things slip your mind?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'They've got a lot to keep track of, those Valar. Guess you can't blame them for spacing some things from the song, now and then...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'a symphony as complex as Creation itself'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, of course, the obvious answer is that they were meant to forget until the appointed time'
[To lmbbookclub] 'and it's an interesting reminder, that the Valar are themselves created, and thus limited'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Music is fractal, so is much of creation'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but thats another discussion'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Exactly. I'd have to hear it a number of times to remember all the little details. I might study it for an entire lifetime...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'And still not understand all of it.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but, i gotta admit, my question still is...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'what exactly are the eagles supposed to do in this whole scheme?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i mean, yavanna wants the trees to protect the trees...okay, so far, so good'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Intel. Rarely, Force REcon'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Spies of Manwe, according to the previous chapter...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'The Lord of the Skies needs a cool pet?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'but...how are the eagles supposed to help THAT effort? or are they part of some other effort?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'All it says about their job in *this* chapter is that they will hear the voices of those who call upon the Valar'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Manwe's Messenger Service!'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'That implies Manwe's power is limited, if he needs spies.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Eagles = Carrier Pigeons, deluxe'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'lulz.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'haw...giant eagles trump hogwarts owls!'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'They are messengers, keeping an eye on all that goes on in M-e and report to Manwe. In Greek, Messanger is. . . .?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'battle royale!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'In the Hobbit, we learn that they can see afar and can concern themselves in the more important of events. They are handier in baddle than pidgeons.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Think of Norse myth, and the ravens carrying word to Odin'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: '"angeloi"'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Like Angels, Godwineson?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'd have to go back and check - but are we SURE that the eagles that are the eyes/messengers of the previous chapter are the Eagles/ Lords of the West?'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Or a certain sort of them. Going too and fro, and reporting'
[To lmbbookclub] 'By their association with Manwe in both chapters, I think they're the same eagles'
[lmbbookclub] Inzilzagar: 'Lord of the West was an exclusive title for the Valar, not? At least it was during the Second Age'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'They also do the rescuing thing...'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'IT is, unless you are a tyrant of the line of Elros, then you take the title for yourself'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'perhaps Iluvatar can see their importance down the road as well? = no scolding'
[lmbbookclub] Jonathson: 'didn't an Eagle carry <mumbles> up to where Maedhros was held by his wrist to the rock?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, it says "The Eagles **of** the Lords of the West", so you may be right, although this is the first time I remember hearing the title Lords of the West'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I think that was Fingon...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'altho, with the unrelenting string of names in the previous chapters, i might have missed it'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think it's about time to start wrapping up...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Before read alouds, we have a book club band number to rehearse!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'eek! forgot my instruments...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'For tomorrow's "Best of Ales & Tales" we're reprising the Misty Mountains song from the Hobbit'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Gaia, you have the lyrics, right?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'ah, I won't be available for that regardless...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'The music is in the LMB playlist - king_of_the_fairies-part'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Want to grab your instruments and take a part that someone else will take tomorrow, Andeon?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'gimme 2 mins, I can be there'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We'll probably just have OW play it'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We have flute, 2 harps, and horn on this'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'which instrument should i grab?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Horn and lute.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Sounds more dwarvish that way.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'done and done'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ah, good'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: 'well, enjoy all. =] was a good meeting'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'what, is the play, and what, is my part!?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We'll do readalouds after the song if you want to stick around to hear that, Pelagrin'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Thanks for your input, Pelagrin!'
You have joined the chat room for your Fellowship, Fellowship chat is now available.
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i need a part...'
[lmbbookclub] Pelagrin: '[need some levels or I would =p] see ya tonight =]'
[To lmbbookclub] 'OK, let's see...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Godwin, can you play lute instead of harp?'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Or flute or horn...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Andeon, take the horn part, I'll take flute'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'horn it is...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Files are king_of_the_fairies-part'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Godwin, you'll have the harp2 part (just subbing lute for it)'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Ready to sing, Gaia?'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Aye.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Here we go!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Very nice!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'It's a good song.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'it sounds to me like you guys need an even deeper bass instrument for that song...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'poor horn went nearly below my ability to hear it'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'We could try theorbo on one of the harp parts.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'Theorbo, bagpipes? Maybe.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We could even try theorbo doubling the horn'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Want to?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'well, i'm up for it - but i have to grab my theo'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Sure - I can play theorbo since the flute doesn't come in for a while'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Just stay on horn, Andeon.'
[lmbbookclub] Godwineson: 'must depart for a time. :-('
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'right oh'
[To lmbbookclub] 'We'll just do a few bars to see how it sounds with the theo added'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I have a duet that I use for this. I must have gotten it somewhere else.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Ooh. That's cool!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i gotta admit - thats sounds a tad more impressive'
[To lmbbookclub] 'It was a duet of you and Lindorieh for this song at the first meeting'
[To lmbbookclub] 'If we have enough in OW we could double both lutes and the horn on theorbos'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Yes, we have it in our Endorlinde collection.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Missing flute part here, sounds like.'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'wow...thats really quite nice...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Which should also be horn, I think.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Well - that gives us an idea of how it would sound anyway. Shall we go on to readalouds?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'the theorbo punctuates the beginning note...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and the horn holds it'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'We're rocking!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'actually, as much as I love my readalouds...'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i'm really, really hungry right now'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'already munching on some reheated pizza as we play'
[To lmbbookclub] 'When we have more folks tomorrow for OW practice we can try different combos of instruments for it'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Agreed. I'll post the duet on the Lindale forums too.'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'I should go and download Aegthil'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: ''s newest tune ,.'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Want to skip readalouds today then? Gaia and I are going to hear more than enough of each other's voices in the coming weeks... :-)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'i was wondering about that... :)'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'yeah, I think i'd like to concentrate on some eating before an amended SNS...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'We've been hearing your voice a lot lately as we add effects to Rog!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Can't wait to hear the finished version of that!'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Arrow whooshes took some time yesterday!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'then I shall bid both of you lovely ladies a fine farewell...'
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'Farewell, Captain!'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Farewell Cap'n!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'and look forward to next week, and some more stories...'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Enjoy lunch!'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'say, len, when do we meet Ungoliant?'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'I gotta helluva story preppped for that'
[To lmbbookclub] 'I think that's chapter 8 - of the Darkening of Valinor'
[lmbbookclub] Andeon: 'good to know - I'll try to be ready'
[To lmbbookclub] 'Six weeks to prep!'


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