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gaiagil
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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Awww... I loved the epithet game.

So, on what I was saying about language and the names Eru and Iluvatar.... Lindorieh sent me a brilliant link to a scholarly essay on the origins of those two words. The writer's take is that Tolkien originally saw it as Adunaic (the language of the Numenorians) but later revised it to be Quenya. In the end, the judgement is that Eru is a calque (loan translation) that the Eldar received when they lived in Eldamar among the Valar. As to origins, the writer suspects it is originally from Valarin (the language of the Valar) or maybe even a word from Iluvatar himself.

That's my quick synopsis... Here's the link if you want the whole shebang: http://www.petritikka.com/elvish/God-s_Names_in_Elvish.pdf

Gaiagil


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

CGriffin wrote:
Very sorry to have missed this. Hopefully my blindness will be cured soon... sad

Anyway, I had to chime in on Tom:
[lmbbookclub] Gaiagil: 'He also thinks he could be Iluvatar in Middle Earth. Oldest and Fatherless.'

An interesting take. I was reading the Fellowship over the weekend (since I had no other way into Middle Earth!) and I can't quote it now, but I got the distinct impression from the Tom chapter that he was not Maiar... Something about him predating everything... The possibility of Illuvatar hadn't occured to me though. I quite like that thought...


According to the Tolkien Professor, he is one of the Maiar. He addresses this question in one of his podcasts.

Here's the link http://www.tolkienprofessor.com/lectures/podcast1.html
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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Laerlenn wrote:
According to the Tolkien Professor, he is one of the Maiar. He addresses this question in one of his podcasts.

Here's the link http://www.tolkienprofessor.com/lectures/podcast1.html


Hmmmm... I'd be willing to grant that it's as close to an answer as we're ever likely to get. I would agree with his reasons for eliminating all the other options, but the conclusion that everything else is eliminated ergo he is a Maiar is only valid if there are no other options. That in itself raises an unanswerable question: do beings exist in Tolkien's world that he doesn't mention? The simplest answer is no, but I don't believe we'll have JRR's answer till we can ask him, and hopefully that won't happen for a long while yet...


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gaiagil
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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

Yes, Cam, the whole origins thing breaks down with Hobbits (and Beorn... but let's not go there just yet as he is a unique being). He mentions the first born (elves) and those who come after(men)as the children of Iluvatar. Aule made dwarves. Orcs are an evil breeding experiment. The Istari are Maiar. Ents were trees made by Yavanna wakened by the elves. Where did the hobbits come from then?

I've always wondered that...
Gaiagil


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re: LMB Book Club, July 3: The Silmarillion: "Valaquenta&qu

I've always thought the Hobbits were an offshoot of Men....just a shorter 'race' as we would use the term in our world. Not a separate creation of Iluvatar.


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